E41: Palisade’s Psychological Pull

What is it about Palisade that makes people love living here so much? Dr. Carisa Authier joins me to discuss.

Theme Music: Riverbend by Geoff Roper

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Welcome to the Postcards From Palisade podcast. I’m Lisa McNamara. Palisade is most famous for its peaches, but there’s so much more happening in our little town. Join me as I chat with our community members to hear about how they are making Palisade a great place to live and visit.

What is it about Palisade that makes people love it so much? I’ve wondered this often, and then one day I was introduced to Dr. Carisa Authier, a Palisade resident who wrote a whole dissertation on this very topic. The town in question for her original paper was Sedona, AZ, but after Carisa and her husband first came to Palisade, she found that many of the same concepts applied to what would soon become their new hometown.

Carisa talks about what those things are that make Palisade so appealing and how Palisade can avoid becoming another Sedona. She talks about her unique approach to mental health as a psychology consultant here in Palisade. And I get to ask her the random question I’ve been wanting to ask a psychologist for so long! All that and more, on today’s Postcard From Palisade.

Lisa: Thank you so much for coming in and talking to me today.

Carisa: Thank you. I’m happy to be here. My name is Carisa Authier. It’s been so long since I’ve introduced myself, like, so I’m like, what do I want to say? So like my first thought was, to talk about how long I’ve lived in Palisade or like, should I introduce myself professionally? Yeah. No, it’s funny. It shouldn’t be a hard question. Because since I’ve been here, like, I’ve shown up as just a person. You know, I think about like, I hate being identified with what I do. I like being identified with who I am, as a person. So. And sometimes it’s hard. It’s hard to know what to pick. It makes me think of a group I was in years ago where we would say, okay, who are you professionally, personally and spiritually? You know, or you know, what are you passionate about in life versus like, okay, how do you make money

Lisa: I like that.

Carisa: You know, Because I feel like, like what you do is so limited. And so I think about since I’ve been here, you know, I think the way I’ve introduced myself has just been like, hi, my name is Carisa and we just moved to Palisade and we love it.

Lisa: I love that. You know, one of the things I actually was thinking about is, one of my cousins is a psychiatrist. And he would tell me he hates to introduce himself as a psychiatrist because as soon as he says that he can see people shut down and immediately form assumptions about him. And, I was also. I don’t know if, you know, Wendy Videlock, she is a poet. She said she also hates to introduce herself as a poet because it’s like a similar thing. She says, oh, I’m a poet. And immediately people have assumptions about what a poet is or, you know, what a psychologist is or psychiatrist is. So that was actually one of the things I wrote down that I was curious about, if you like to kind of lead with what you do or not, so, that’s interesting.

Carisa: Oh, yeah. And it’s interesting to hear that, because I hate saying that I’m a psychologist, because people. And it’s because people have a very definite reaction. And so, you know, people immediately become different. You know, they feel like, oh, that I can read their minds or that they can. You know, they suddenly feel vulnerable in a way, so they get immediately closed off. And so, like, when I would go to parties, you know, people are like, what do you do? And I learned this the hard way by telling them and then watching that dynamic. Or, you know, sometimes people would share what their fear was with me, and I’m like, look, I’m off the clock, first of all. Like, I don’t want to work that hard. And, you know, think about every little thing you say. I’m here to have fun. I’m here as a person.

Lisa: Yeah.

Carisa: And so. But it’s interesting talking about this now. You know, before I became a psychologist, I was actually a chemist. So I’ve had a number of different careers, and, becoming a psychologist was kind of the latest one. But so starting out as a chemist, when I was. At the time, I lived in Georgia. And so this is when I was in my 20s, we were all single, and I would go out to bars with friends of mine, and I had friends that were wedding planners or would work at different corporate things. But I could watch talking to guys, and they would talk to my friends, and they’d say, what do you do? And I’d say, I was a chemist. And their eyes would glaze over, or they suddenly were not interested in me, and they would only be interested in my friends. And so then I started playing with it, and I used to make up things that I was. It was like, I’m a flight attendant or, you know, I’m a secretary, just to get people to talk to me. Because there was something about me saying I was a chemist, that was too intimidating, at least for the men I was running into in the Deep South.

Lisa: That’s fascinating. That’s so cool. And, yeah, I mean, it’s definitely something where I’ve never. I never liked to talk about what I did. Anyway, before we go off on too far of a digression, I think that’s really interesting. And just to clarify for anybody listening, though, you can’t read minds, right?

Carisa: That’s right. No, I don’t read minds.

Lisa: OK. Alright. That’s cool. Just to stick on the topic of what you do for a little bit longer, I think it’s really interesting that you change careers midlife, because that’s really something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately, too, and I think that’s really hard, especially going back and getting a doctorate is really hard. So what drove you to do that?

Carisa: Yeah, it was really hard. it was. You know, I feel like it was kind of a progression. So, like, I got a degree in chemistry to start off just because I was good in chemistry. There weren’t very many women in chemistry, so it was just practical. Like, you know, I grew up with a single mom who was always in kind of whatever job she could get. So that influenced me of, like, wanting to get a career that I could take care of myself and have more of a stable life. And so that was a practical decision. In my opinion, I was a mediocre chemist, but it did help get me a job. I mean, out of college I started working for Georgia Pacific a couple months after I graduated in their research and development department. And so I learned way more about building products than I ever thought I would know because I worked in this division where we made adhesives for plywood and engineered lumber. And then I went into kind of industrial. And so I was able to kind of move around, like, within that corporate setting.

I got tired of being in the lab, so then I went into sales, and I worked in their sales department. And that actually helped move me from the east coast back to the west coast where I was born. So that was probably the big draw there. I didn’t know anything about sales. I mean, they literally dropped me off in California with a company car and my sales list and said, okay, go at it. So that was a whole. So that was kind of my second career, but it kind of built off the chemistry. I started selling the products that I used to do research on.

And then, but I’m not a good salesman. And I realized when I was in that I made really good connections with my clients. But I started going in, I could tell if they were having a bad day or if they were tired. So instead of trying to sell them something, I was like, hey, when’s the last time you took a vacation? You know, when’s the last time you and your wife went out to dinner?

And so I started actually taking classes at night and working during the day, and I took psychology classes. It had been a love when I was in undergrad, but it wasn’t practical at the time. Like, I thought I could, you know, start working with a bachelor’s degree in chemistry as a woman, a lot easier than a bachelor’s degree in psychology, and make a living to support myself. So I started realizing that my classes, my psychology classes at night were much more fulfilling and satisfying than my sales job during the day. So that kind of began this kind of progression to kind of move eventually out of sales and apply to graduate programs, you know, after I took a number of classes at night and was like, yeah, no, this is. This is really my love.

And my husband was horrified when I told him. I was like, guess what? I’m go going to quit my job and go back to school. And he’s like, what? We had been married, I think, for a year. So, I mean, he was worried about it. I mean, it’s a huge expense to go back, and it’s a huge time commitment, and it means that he had to hold down the household. and because so much my time went into going back to school, but since then, I mean, it is really, like, that is my niche. I’m really good at what I do and I love it. It doesn’t feel like work. And now he can see, like, he’s like, wow. No, this was definitely the right move for you, you know, so it all came around.

Lisa: Yeah. And he seems like your number one cheerleader now.

Carisa: Yes, yes. He’s definitely a big cheerleader.

Lisa: That’s cool. So he mentioned when he reached out to me on Facebook about you being an interesting person to talk to, that you have a really unique approach to mental health and, and to psychology. So what is different about your approach and how would it be different to more like, a quote, unquote, traditional approach?

Carisa: So it’s interesting that you bring that up because since I’ve, you know, I worked as a licensed clinical psychologist when I was in Arizona, and then when I came to Colorado, I’ve reshifted kind of my whole platform to be more in line with how I think about the work instead of trying to fit what I do into that typical psychologist box. So here I’m not licensed as a psychologist. I’m actually a psychology consultant. I do more of what I call education rather than, okay, come to me and tell me your symptoms and let me diagnose you.

Like, psychology is very much framed after the medical model, which is all about listening to symptoms and getting rid of the symptoms. And my beef with psychology has been that they ignore context, in my opinion. So what I do is more than, instead of having a symptom and trying to get rid of it, I look at that as a part of yourself that wants to get to know you. And so I help people look at the messages that their body gives them as, like, look, this is like learning a whole new language. And this is the language of the psyche. And so when you feel quote, unquote depressed, I see this as a part of yourself that is incongruent with something in your life. It’s not something to get rid of. It’s something to be curious about and understand.

You know, and I saw this a lot in my practice where like, quote unquote anxiety or depression, to me were always instances where the person was doing something to please somebody outside of themselves that was not in alignment with what they wanted as a person. And so that was the way that their psyche was trying to get their attention. And so, you know, I look at everything that comes up as there’s a reason why this is coming up. You know, whether it’s anger or terror or sadness or. And so instead of, yeah, trying to get rid of it, it’s like, no, learn how to make space for it and want to get to know it.

And so, I mean, I guess now I tell people, like, I connect. I connect people to themselves, and I help people have a deeper relationship with themselves because the more somebody understands themselves and learns to like all of them, instead of trying to reject these pieces they don’t like, the better their life gets, the better their relationships get. You know, they can just move forward in a clearer way. So, yeah, I kind of scrap this, the medical model and say, no, I just want to help you have a deeper relationship with yourself.

Lisa: Yeah, that’s really fascinating. And, especially because, right. Like you said, sometimes there is no getting rid of the symptom. It’s not like I don’t know, a virus or something. Like it’s a lot of times there is no getting rid of it. It’s just part of who somebody is. So that’s interesting because that is a completely different approach to saying no, you have this thing that we need to cure. It’s like no, you have this thing that’s part of your person that you need to accept and love and like that’s really cool.

Carisa: Yeah.

Lisa: I like that. I can see how that would be much more like, I don’t know, humanistic, if that’s the right word, but just like empathetic way of working with people.

Carisa: I feel like there’s so much of life where we, we just kind of enhance these, these self criticisms. I mean I think I’ve learned that everybody has a critical voice and it works against them, you know. And so when somebody can develop self love and self compassion and they’re easier on themselves, they’re easier on everybody else too, you know. But we’re not really taught that.

Lisa: No, no. Like it’s a problem that needs to be fixed is like the way that it’s more commonly kind of looked at today which you can see coming at it from a different approach would absolutely caused a different result. So now you’re here. So what brought you and Marc to Palisade originally?

Carisa: It’s funny, we landed here by accident. I put accident and air quotes. We took off on a journey a couple of years ago. We have a little camper van and we set up our life and our schedule so that we could take three months to travel around in our camper van. And our intention was to actually make it up to Canada and look for little towns up there to maybe spend the summers in. So by that time we were clear that we wanted, we wanted to get out of Arizona at least in the summer because it’s just been so freaking hot there.

And so, so that was the plan. What actually happened is we got up close to the border, it was cold, it was rainy. It was going to be cold and rainy for another like two weeks. And we’re like, we’re in a van and this sucks and actually we can go wherever we want, you know. So we’re like okay, let’s abandon that plan and let’s go chase the sun. So we went south. We ended up joining Harvest Host because we ended up going to this vineyard in Oregon that we had been to when we were dating. So 22 years prior. My husband remembered how to get there. We get there. Turns out that the woman who runs the place now, it was her parents that had started it. When we were there 22 years ago, that was the first year that that tasting room had been built. Her father had since passed away. And so we showed up there and could share these stories and had kind of this immediate kinship. And so as we’re sitting there drinking wine, and we watch somebody drive through the property with a little teardrop camper, and we’re like, wow, can you camp here? And she’s like, well, you can do it through this program called Harvest Host. And she goes. And we have two spots, and one’s taken, but we have one open for tonight. And we’re like, sweet. How do we join Harvest Hosts so we could camp here?

So that’s how we joined Harvest Host. And so, you know, so we’re continuing to go south through Oregon and Nevada. And so we had come. We were planning to explore parts of Colorado that we were familiar with. So, like, Crested Butte, Ouray. We had never been to Palisade. We had driven through Grand Junction I think once. The way that the timing worked, it’s like we looked on Harvest Host to see if there’s anywhere we could stay. And so we stayed in Palisade through Harvest Host, and we were planning to stay one night, and then we were going to go on. So I think we stayed at Gubbini’s winery. So we did wine tasting with her and then we had a little electric motorcycle that we can both fit on. And so, you know, we set up camp, and then we went to tour around. And we ended up at Restoration and met Gary, and we were like, this place is really cool. I mean, we just instantly fell in love.

And so I think. I think the next day, we probably rented a room at Spoke and Vine because we were like, we need to stay another day. And it kind of went like that for. We hovered around this area for a month, actually, because every day we’d go out and we’d explore, and we’re like, this place just feels different. So one of the cool things about our trip was, like, we went up the western coast, so we went up through California and Oregon and Washington. And each time we would go to places, my husband and I would say, like, how does this place feel? And we were both pretty in sync of, like, well, this is fine, but there’s something missing, or this just doesn’t feel right. And even places where we’d camp and be like, oh, I don’t like it here, let’s get out of here. And it was the first time that we had judged places like that. And so then when we got here, and it was instantly, we were both like, oh, this feels different. And then we were like, we could live here. And it’s like, okay, if we’re, you know, but vacationing somewhere is different than living here. But we’re like, we actually have the time in our schedule. Like, if we’re serious about this, we should. We should try to stay for, like, a month and see how it is day to day.

And then after that, we met Anita Hicks at her farmstand, and then we met her son. After we met Anita, we came back the next day to talk to her again, and we were like, we actually think we’re gonna hang out here and do you happen to know anybody who is renting a place? The way it turned out, like, I think we stayed at Spoke and Vine for a week. I think we rented a hotel in Grand Junction for a week just to try that out. and then we stayed at Peachfork and did the camping program there. And so, you know, we did a couple different things. But.

And so while we were here, I started thinking about my dissertation, actually. And, you know, because I wrote about the psychology of place. And so I use this framework of, like, these four components to kind of assess a place. And so those components are sense of place, place attachment, community rootedness, and home. And so we started evaluating, like, okay, does this place meet those things? You know, so sense of place is that immediate felt sense. And we felt it when we’re here, like, immediately this feels different.

Place attachment. We didn’t have a lot of attachment. We had attachment to Colorado, but not to the Western Slope. We didn’t know anything about the Western Slope except that this place is so amazingly centrally located to all the places we love. You know, it’s amazing to be two hours away from Moab, two hours away from Ouray, and 90 minutes away from Glenwood Springs. But we felt, we felt this immediate sense of community. I mean, just like, when it was so easy to talk to every single person we ran into. And I remember when we were at Restoration, and Gary told us about when his friend first drove him through, and he was immediately like, okay, let me look for a place to get. Because it felt different.

You know, when we talked to Anita, and then, you know, Marc immediately hit it off with Ben, her son. And there was just something that I immediately liked about her and the fact that they were both like, well, yeah, you know, let me call, you know, a couple people I know and see, and here, let’s get your phone number. And we were like, really? You know, and then, you know, meeting Jeff and Jody, you know, at the Spoke and Vine, and then. And of course. And then going to their restaurant, Fidel’s, and we just, like, everybody was so friendly. Like, I was so struck by how friendly everybody was. And we had just, you know, been traveling up the coast. We had been to all these little towns, and, like, this place is different.

And then the sense of home, you know, it’s just like, well, where do you feel comfortable? And, you know, I feel like those other components help a place feel comfortable. So. Yeah. And so after a month, I was like, yeah, we gotta move here. So. And it’s interesting. I think I was. Well, I think when we were both here, we were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. My husband loves Arizona and has deep, much deeper ties to Arizona than I do. So we got back to Arizona, and he was like, I don’t know if I can move. And I was a little heartbroken, actually, because I was like, oh, I know. I’m ready to move. Like, I would have. I think we got home in August. So we were here at the end of June through July. So we were here during the hottest time, too. And everybody’s like, oh, it’s hot here. And we’re like, oh, yeah, no, this is nothing compared to what we. What we’re used to, right? So. And he’s like, well, maybe we could go there for part of the year and but keep a place here for part of the year. I knew, like, I was ready to leave, and I just had to help convince him.

So we, we came back out here in January, and I was like, okay, we were there during the hottest time. Let’s go there in the winter when it’s slow and see if we still love it, you know? So we came out here for a week in January. We went skiing up at Powderhorn and rented one of the little tiny houses up there. And, you know, we saw. I don’t think we saw Anita that trip, but we saw her son Ben. I think we ran in. We went to Fidel’s. So we saw Jeff and Jody. And so it was just like, it was fun to come back. And, like, people remembered us from, you know, when we were here this summer, and it still felt like, oh, yeah, wait, let’s go see these people. And it didn’t feel weird or, you know, it was just like, this is easy.

And so after that week, you know, Marc was like, okay, let’s do it. And I’m like, awesome. So, you know, by then I had, closed my practice there. So I closed it at the end of May, and we started looking for a place to rent here, and things lined up to make it happen. And so now we’ve. We actually took ownership of the place that we’re in. We got the keys May 24^th. Although we did a lot of back and forth last summer to actually move. So we weren’t officially here till August 10^th. But so we’re coming up on almost a year, and it’s still. Every day we’re like, we get to live here!

Lisa: Yes it’s like a vacation every day. It is. That’s really interesting because, my husband and I had a very similar journey here. We had taken. We actually took two really long career breaks, which, you know, everybody thought we were completely nuts for doing. But we took a year when we were 30, and then we took a year and five months when we were 40, and, just drove around the US and camped and really were looking for that special place. And like you said, it’s amazing. We also drove all the way up the west coast and hit every 50 states. And between the two trips, the second trip was very focused on Colorado and Utah and California, Arizona. All my favorite stuff. But, like, you feel, sometimes immediately upon driving into a town, you get the feeling of the town, and it’s almost. It’s like. It’s so weird, but it’s almost, like, irrational. You just. I don’t know what it is. You drive in, you get a feeling. You’re like, I don’t like this place, or, I like this place.

Carisa: Yep.

Lisa: And it’s hard to kind of change that first impression, but there was really nowhere that we went that was like Palisade. And even including places we’ve lived all over the country, you know, a lot of places, you. Some places I’ve lived, like, everybody you talked to just wants to leave. They’re miserable. They hate it there, you know, they’re just unhappy. So I have never been in or lived in a place for this long, we’re coming up on three years, where everybody is like, every day they’re just like, happy. Like, what is in the water here? I don’t know but I like it. But it was a really similar thing where we had been traveling for 15 months, and we were going into the winter, and it was cold and it was start. I’m like, I don’t want to do another winter on the road. Like, let’s rent a place.

And I had to convince him to stay here because it’s quote unquote so warm, even though it was, winter. But as soon as we rented a place and we started meeting people, immediately they were so warm and welcoming. And it was such an embrace that. Especially from being full time on the road during Covid you know, we were very isolated a lot of the time, it was like, this is home. It just felt like home right away. And I think that’s so fascinating because, like, again, with your dissertation about Sedona, you know, I have to admit I didn’t read the whole thing, but I skimmed it. But a lot of the things that people were saying about what they found so compelling about Sedona, I feel like, are similar to what I’ve heard from people here, where it’s almost like you can’t explain it, but it’s a feeling you feel it’s a special place and it just speaks to you. And I’m just fascinated by that. Like, what do you think. What do you think is behind that kind of a feeling that people get, or is it unexplainable?

Carisa: Well, I mean, I think. I think there is something really special about people who choose to live in a town. So I think they take care of the town differently. I think they interact with people differently. One of the things that was interesting about doing my dissertation research is I, a lot of that I had to go through a lot of relocation research. And, you know, and I found out that people in the United States relocate more than people than anywhere else in the world. And the main reason people relocate is for a job. And so the job is the priority. How they make money is the priority. Where, like, the people in Palisade choose to live here. And I think and they figure out the job part second.

It was one of the things that struck me about Sedona, actually, and why I picked people who moved to Sedona in midlife because in midlife people are typically in the height of their careers and there is no industry, really, I mean, there’s a lot of tourism in Sedona, but it’s not like there’s industry that’s going to relocate people there. And so I was like, so what is that driving force? And so people either felt this felt sense, like as soon as they got there, kind of like we talked about of how we felt here, a lot of people like vacationed there with their family and so they moved there as soon as they can make it work out. Just because it was so beautiful or there’s something that struck them.

But the thing about Sedona that almost everybody talked about is that there wasn’t a sense of community there. And that’s even, even less now. Because the town has kind of gone towards tourism and Airbnbs and short term rentals and they’ve allowed big box places to come in, so like Whole Foods bought the local grocery store and Starbucks drove the local coffee shops out of business. And so like, when we left there, the feeling was much different than when we first got there. And it’s another reason why I love Palisade, because I feel like the government here is really committed to keeping that community feel, which means they’re really committed to that balance between community and not putting everything towards tourism because it’s super easy to do. Sorry, this is a long answer to that question, but there’s. When people move to a place just for a job, they don’t have the same attachment to it. They don’t have the same love for it. So you can drive through like some towns or some cities and they’re not well maintained or picked up or they just it feels different. Versus people who genuinely want to be there. It’s just a different energy.

Lisa: Yeah.

Carisa: You know, so it’s, it’s the difference between, okay, doing what I should do and when people tell me that, I’m always like, yeah, but what do you want to do? Because “shoulds” are old programming or something somebody else has told you to do, and you’re kind of doing it reluctantly or dragging your feet versus, but I want to do that. You know, that’s a different energy. And so I think the people in Palisade, or at least everybody I’ve talked to, like, wants to be here. And so you start from this different baseline. And I think it permeates everything.

Lisa: Also are not industries that would relocate people here for work. So, yeah, we all have to make it at work here in different ways. So speaking of town meetings, I know that you and Marc are also really involved in going to them. I usually just zoom in to them because I. I tell people I like to make dinner while I watch the meeting if I don’t have anything to say. But having that perspective of coming from a town that really became committed to tourist growth and was probably inarguably overrun by it. To here where I agree, I think they’re really carefully, thoughtfully debating about how do we grow but keep the community character. I think the town is doing a great job of that. And yeah, what’s your thought on that? What do you think they. Because growth is inevitable and so we’re always gonna have that tension of, you know, tourism is what keeps a lot of the businesses and people here employed. What do you think Palisade should definitely not do that Sedona did or. That’s not a very well structured question, but I think maybe you kind of see what I’m getting at!

Carisa: Yeah, no, I do.

Lisa: What’s the worst thing the Palisade could do that would ruin everything?

Carisa: Well, I guess one of the things that I’ve appreciated is that they have a cap on how many short term rentals they can do. And I think that’s huge because I watched Sedona not regulate that at all. And so then, you know, neighborhoods became like, became fractured because now it was a different person in this house every other, every few days. And so, you know, the people who had lived there for a long time complained of like, now there’s increased traffic or, you know, one of the things I noticed in Sedona was how much more trash there was. There was graffiti now on the red rocks. That never used to happen.

And I think part of that is just again, the temporariness of letting people come in for just a few days. And people would justify, like, well, now I can allow people who can’t afford hotels or families to stay in here. And I always think, well, first of all, just because you can, should you? And second of all, like, like you have to consider the whole picture and not just this one little slice. And so how is one action going to impact the whole. I used to be able to go on hikes in Sedona where I wouldn’t see another person or I’d see very few people. And there were certain hikes that only the locals knew about. All that’s gone. I mean, now if you’re not in a parking lot before 9am you’re not going to get a parking place. And you see dozens of people on the hikes. And like I said, now I see graffiti and trash that I never used to see. Because now it’s not people who live there because they love it and they want to care for it. It’s people who have no attachment to that place. And so their behavior and how they treat that place reflects that.

Lisa: They’re not going to see the impact of treating the place poorly. They’re just there for the weekend, somebody else will pick up their water bottle.

Carisa: Exactly.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, I see that. I mean, living in Fort Collins or living on the Front Range versus here, I think is similar where, you know, you can’t. Front Range has become so busy, like, you can’t hike a lot of the popular trails. And, it is just, it’s a different feel. And yeah, I like the slow pace here. I love that there are trails we can hike on that nobody really knows about or places we can go. It’s like very feels very secret still, so definitely hope it stays that way. But it’s such a hard balance.

Carisa: It totally is. You know, and it’s funny. Like, even, you know, I know USA Today is doing, you know, the top 20 farmers markets, and, like, right now they’re doing the top 20 roadside motels. And so, you know, and I had mixed feelings about voting for those because it’s like, yay! Like, I want to pump Palisade up and have it on the map. And I also am like. I also don’t want people to know about it because, you know, people, like, can love a place to death. So it’s. It’s definitely a balance, you know, I mean.

And I think, you know, one of the things I’ve been impressed about here, too, is I think there’s an awareness, especially during the winter, that, okay, there’s not as many tourists, and yet there’s all these local businesses that need to stay in business. And so I feel like at least the people I’ve talked to are really mindful of, like, yeah, let’s go out to dinner, or like, the monthly wine club so we can keep giving these businesses business during the winter and so that the community is kind of committed to supporting them because that benefits all of us. That’s part of the balance, I think, of, like. Yeah, no, as a community, we need to help sustain all the businesses here and not rely just on tourism. But we all need to help each other.

And I guess something else I’ve noticed that I love. Like in other places I’ve felt more competition between businesses. We’re here, I feel there’s a lot more collaboration. And so it’s kind of like, okay if we all, like, if we want everybody to do well, you know. And so like, for example, I go to Blondie Yoga’s class on Sundays because I’m so grateful actually that I can walk a block and, and go to yoga and that, you know, she has partnered with the Blue Pig so that it, it’s good for both of them. Or like ordinary fellow, you know, who does, you know, the historical society meetings or the, or the watercolor. It’s like I feel like so many of the businesses here are very community minded and so, and that they kind of stick together of like, okay, how can we do things that benefit all of us? Like, there’s more win-win mentality than, oh no, I’m, you know, I want my cut and I don’t care what happens to everybody else.

Lisa: Yes, very collaborative. And that’s something I’ve heard from pretty much everybody in every type of field that I have talked to for this podcast. From farmers to business owners to everybody. It’s like with a few exceptions, you know, which nobody wants to say any names, but most people are willing to go above and beyond to help their, they, you know, what other people would consider competitor. Even to the extent of, you know, lending them equipment and lending them supplies when they don’t have it. And that’s definitely a unique thing here too.

And you speak about the seasonality too. When I first moved here, I’m definitely a summer person. I love the summer and you know, I like the crowds of people. I think it’s a lot of fun. But somebody told me, oh, in a few years you’re going to love the winter more and you’re gonna like be sad when the season hits. And this year was the first year. I was kind of walking downtown the other day and it was really busy and I’m like, oh, I’m a little sad now. I didn’t think that would ever happen. Because like the local community and just the atmosphere over the winter and the quiet months and having Powderhorn and you know, cross country skiing, it’s like, that’s really fun. It’s really nice that we get to enjoy this place to ourselves. So it happened to me.

Carisa: Oh that’s so funny, because we’re still very much in the first year. So it’s like, you know, going to the Honeybee festival. And at first, like, when I first saw things about it, I was like, we thought we were gonna be out of town. And I was like, oh, that won’t be any big deal if we miss it. And I honestly thought some of it would be a little cheesy. And so then we went and, like, it was freaking adorable.

Lisa: It’s so cute!

Carisa: I was like, I’m so glad we’re here. And like, seeing all the little kids and all the dogs, especially dressed up as bees, I was like, okay, this is amazing. And. And then I felt like, oh, so that, like, this is what kicks off. Okay, now it’s festival season. Like, now the tourist season has started and, you know, but we’re like, hooray. Now we live here. We get to be a part of it.

Lisa: No, don’t get me wrong. I’m still excited. But it is. It’s interesting that you have a different. You have a completely different experience in the winter versus the summer here. It’s like six months of the year are very calm and six months are very energetic.

Carisa: Yeah, no, I love these little festivals and the things that the town does, I think are amazing.

Lisa: Yeah, I agree! So this is a very random question, but because I have a psychologist here. One of the things I’ve always wanted to ask a psychologist is, you know, there are different psychologists or psychiatrists who have, TV shows or podcasts or things like that where they actually, you work with people on the air, in public. And I’ve always been curious of someone in that profession, what do you think about that? Like, do you think it’s, exploit. Exp. I can never say that word! Exploitative? Or do you think it’s helpful because it opens up the field to more people?

Carisa: Well, that’s a good question. My first reaction is, I hate it. And, you know, but when you say it, you know, but it also opens the field up to more people. And there’s probably some truth in that. You know, it’s interesting. I went to, oh, now I can’t remember her name, but there’s a woman who wrote a book, You Should Talk to Someone. And I have that book and I appreciated that she kind of talked about, you know, she talked about her own therapy as a psychologist and what it’s like to work with people and then be in therapy herself. And I thought that that book was really helpful. And I saw her at a conference, and she also does a radio show with somebody else. And so I got to witness a taping of that show. And I was really turned off after that, because I felt like the interventions were different on a radio show because of the time.

And so, you know, and they make this disclaimer of, well, this is for entertainment and it’s not, you know, and I’m sure there’s all kinds of disclaimers to kind of protect them from liability. And. But the reality is, to me, it felt like it made light of complex problems and it tried to simplify things because now you’ve got to do it within this timeframe. And we talked about it as a room of psychologist afterwards of like, well, you know, you recommended this and you ignored all these other things. And they were like, well, you know, we only have so much time. And so the recommendation for that particular show was for a couple and for them to separate, you know, and so there were lots of us that were like, but what about this and what about this and what about this? You know, and there’s so many other people affected. And so, like, this is the message that we’re sending out of, oh, it’s just too hard, or these are patterns that aren’t gonna change, and so just leave him? And so, like, to me, that’s like a horrible message to be sending out to the public at large.

Like, I feel like there’s too much of that. There’s too much cancel culture. There’s too much, oh, this is too hard. Or there’s too much labeling. It’s kind of like why I wanted to get out of the field and I hate diagnoses and all that, because I think when you label somebody and then people start listening with an ear to kind of fit into that, and again, they ignore the context, they ignore the situation. And instead of helping people learn to communicate better and learn how to work through difficult situations, that particular episode, their recommendation was just to leave. So that left a really big impact in my mind. And so I’m like, this is not helpful. This is to me, it’s another form of reality TV. But it’s like, but what’s the purpose if we’re taking people’s hardships and using them for entertainment? Like, that’s such the wrong message.

Lisa: It’s the real relationship with real people. Other real people are gonna see that and, you know, think they can apply that same thing. Interesting. And I’m so. I’m fascinated that you’ve had. You’ve even had the experience to go there and see this sort of thing in action. Because that is so. It’s so interesting to me because you want to be drawn to, like, advice columnists or, you know, how do you solve how do other people’s problems get solved? How can I try to solve my own? But getting back to that whole thing of, like, these are real people who have real lives, and you’re kind of boiling it down to this little entertainment show.

Carisa: Yeah.

Lisa: Cool. I’m glad I have you as my captive audience to hear about that! What things in the field or that you do now in your practice do you find, and this might be repetitive, but do you find more helpful than that sort of a conversation? Or what do you find is the most helpful way of working with people?

Carisa: I’ve been thinking about this a lot, you know, since I feel like since the move to Colorado, I’ve just been kind of redefining myself because it’s you coming here and giving up my license. I was like, okay, what do I want to be? I have this blank slate. How do I want to do that? So I’ve been thinking about what things have been important to me all the way through. And I, to me, I think the biggest thing is presence, like teaching people how to be present. And, you know, when I. And I was pretty active in Arizona and I was part of the Arizona Psychological Association, and I, you know, I did a lot of things professionally in that regard. And people would always say, oh, well, what’s your specialty?

That was another question I hated. And I was like, humans, humans are my specialty. Like, no, I don’t focus on CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, or I don’t focus on depression, or I don’t. Because people are more complex than that. And if you’re only using one technique, like, I love learning, and I’ve learned all kinds of different techniques because I’ve learned that different things work for different people. And even the same person, a different situation is going to call for something else.

So going back to what I think is important as presence, like, if you’re truly a hundred percent present with someone, then and sometimes they don’t need anything except a present listener. I mean, I find in a lot of my sessions with people, I actually say very little. You know, my job is to kind of listen to them talk and explore things out loud. And sometimes I can, I’ll summarize what they say, you know, in a sentence, but it’s really just a reflection back to them. And they’ll be like, yes, that’s it. So I help them, I just give them the space for them to clarify for themselves what’s going on. I’m not using a technique. I’m just being present with them.

And that is so lacking in our world, even in psychology. You, you would think like, but that’s what you’re supposed to do, you know. But I think people get too focused on these empirically validated treatments and manualized treatments or, oh, well, do you specialize in EMDR or, you know, whatever the latest flavor is. And I’m like, just be present with people and normalize their experience. You know, we’re all human beings and we all go through these things. They aren’t things to be pathologized or labeled. Like, we just sometimes need we need to help people out, human to human, or tell them that they’re not alone or just give them space to like, feel what they’re feeling and help them feel that.

Lisa: I like that a lot. That’s really beautiful. That’s really beautiful. And especially just with all of the distractions and everything in daily life, like, it is really rare to sit down and talk to people and really listen to people. So, yeah, I like that a lot.

Carisa: Yeah. Again, it brings me back to when we first came through Palisade, and when we were at Anita’s fruit stand and Ben and my husband were talking about the camper van that we were in, and they were talking about all these things. And so I was just shopping and then I started talking to Anita, and she told me, she’s like, Palisade is about having an experience. She’s like, you know, if you just want to have a transaction, you know, and have somebody check you out and not talk to you, go somewhere else, like, you know, but I’m here to, like, talk to people and interact with people. And I’ve heard that in different ways through other people I’ve talked about. And that’s one of the things, I think, that makes Palisade special. And that’s one of the things that makes this feel like an experience, because there’s kind of an invitation to slow down and actually talk to the person that you’re interacting with and be present with them and take the time to, like, be in the moment instead of trying to get to the next thing.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is probably the only place where I would go, well, I guess, because I know the people now, but, you know, even before I really knew people well, like, just go into a store and talk to people and not buy anything. So I’m like, I know I’m gonna come back and buy something later. But, yeah, I wouldn’t ever do that anywhere else. And that people are fine with that. They’re just like, oh, hey, how’s it going? Thanks for stopping by. Yeah. Interesting. I love that.

Carisa: When I think about who I am as a person, personally and professionally, is like, I want to help alleviate suffering in the world. And I think one of the ways that that happens, is through connection. And so. And I feel like, again, Palisade creates a perfect environment for that connection to happen and they inspire it through even, you know, people who just come here for a couple of days. The people who live here and own businesses here kind of invite people to slow down and to connect. And I feel like, as human beings, we all need each other and that that. And I think when we slow down and we have connection, then we’re worried less about material things, and then we get back in touch with what’s really important in life. And I think now, especially now, that’s a really helpful thing to remember and to promote.

Lisa: Absolutely. Yes. That is one of my passions, too, with this. With the, event list thing that I do with any, like, the bike group, I want to get people talking to each other. You know, I want to get people out of their bubbles and talking to each other and just it doesn’t even, you know, whatever they do, whatever they like to do, I don’t really care. It’s just like, get out and talk to people and, like, make some common ground. And it’s so important that people don’t just stay isolated at home watching TV, you know, or watching the news.

Carisa: Yeah, well, yeah, let’s get them away from their TVs.

Lisa: Right? For real.

Carisa: Because I feel like if you get out and you talk to somebody, I mean, it doesn’t take very long in talking to somebody to find something that you have in common, you know, but you have to look up from your phone and you have to get out of your house to do that. And, you know, it’s. It’s funny, when we came here a couple of years ago, and, you know, so then we, you know, we. We’d go out and talk to as many people as we could, and then we’re doing internet searches on Palisade. And so that’s when we came across Postcards from Palisade. And so we’re like, oh, my gosh, they have. There’s this cool thing. So we started listening to this podcast. You know, it was kind of this beacon to help us get back. And so it’s just. To me, it’s super cool that you started doing this and doing the event list and again, yeah, I feel like this is a place that kind of. Okay. And, like, what can I do to support and promote community? I mean, how freaking awesome is that?

Lisa: Just. I mean, and it’s like, I want to share what I love. And I really. I just really appreciate hearing from people who listen, especially when, you know, people like you and Marc who, you know, found it and learned about or used it as a way to learn about your new town. Like, I just love hearing that stuff. It makes me so happy. I’m like, that’s why I do this. It’s great.

Carisa: Well, thank you for doing it. I remember one of the first ones we listened to. I think you interviewed Rondo. So that’s been a. It’s probably been a couple years ago or maybe a year ago.

Lisa: I think maybe a year.

Carisa: And so we met Rondo, like, when we were. When we kind of hovered here for that first month, we went to one of the tourism advisory board meetings while we were here. It’s kind of what we do when we’re thinking about moving to a place. We go to the library. We try to go to, like, city or town council meetings just to kind of help get the feel, you know, of a place. And so then we talked to Rondo, and found out that, you know, he used to be a river runner. And of course, you know, we lived in Flagstaff for a while and Sedona. We’ve been. And we’ve rafted down the Grand Canyon so we’re just like, oh, that is so cool. And then when you did an interview him and we, like, we know him, we met him. So it kind of helped us feel connected. You know, and so, yeah, anyway, just another little plug. This has been a really fun podcast to listen to.

Lisa: I’m glad. And just to wrap up, I’m curious if you are accepting new clients, if people hear this and they, you know, want to reach out and talk to you, see if you’re a good fit to work with them, what’s the best way for people to reach out to you to get in touch?

Carisa: I still have a website that’s drcarisa.com, so d r c a r i s a dot com. So, that says a little bit about me. So it’ll give people a flavor. And then there’s and so my phone number is on there, but my phone number is also 928-215-1039. So if you go to the website, there’s a place where you can send an email automatically, you know, if that feels more comfortable. Or you can call and leave me a message. And usually I like to, you know, call people back and talk to them for like 20 or 30 minutes to kind of get a sense of what they’re looking for, you know, and then if it makes sense I’ll schedule a session and we’ll do a session together to see how that feels. And then we both decide together if it’s a good fit. And if it’s not, then, you know, I’ll help people find another avenue or somewhere to get them help.

Lisa: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me, and it’s really great to meet you. And I know we’re going to be running to each other around town.

Carisa: Oh, I hope so. Yeah, I know. I’m so happy to meet you, too. So thank you for this.

Lisa: Thank you.

Lisa: So what do you think – did we miss anything about why Palisade has such a draw? Or does this parallel your experience with our little town? If there’s anything we didn’t touch on, let me know at lisa(at)postcardsfrompalisade.com.

The podcast’s theme music is Riverbend by Geoff Roper.

Thanks for listening. With love, from Palisade.