When you bite into a peach or a cherry or any other delicious piece of Palisade produce, can you taste the more than 200 federal regulations and five governmental agencies behind the workers who helped provide that bounty?
Kim Noland, an independent H-2A agent based in Palisade, explains what agents do to help farmers manage the H-2A program and why the program is a critical economic necessity for Palisade. Marvel with us at the bureaucracy, and the people, behind the program while learning more about how it works and about how Palisade has changed over the past 30 years.
Theme Music: Riverbend by Geoff Roper
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Transcript:
Welcome to the Postcards From Palisade podcast. I’m Lisa McNamara. Palisade is most famous for its peaches, but there’s so much more happening in our little town. Join me as I chat with our community members to hear about how they are making Palisade a great place to live and visit.
When you bite into a peach or a cherry or any other delicious piece of Palisade produce, can you taste the more than 200 federal regulations and five governmental agencies behind the workers who helped provide that bounty?
Today, Kim Noland joins me to share her perspective on the H-2A program in Palisade, based on her work as an independent H-2A agent for farmers here and around the country. Kim manages the entire H-2A process, from employer certification to coordinating workers’ visa applications and arrivals.
Kim’s husband is also a farmer who owns Noland Orchards, which gives Kim a unique perspective on the process and a bushel of stories to share about how Palisade has changed over the past 30 years since she moved here.
Marvel with us at the bureaucracy, and the people, behind the program that is a critical economic necessity to Palisade farmers and foreign workers alike, on today’s Postcard from Palisade.
Lisa: Thank you again for coming in to talk with me. So today I’m talking with Kim Noland, and after I published episode number 40 with Iriana from La Plaza about La Plaza’s work with H-2A workers, Kim actually reached out to me just to let me know that I missed a really big piece of the story. which I really appreciated. So of course I had to have you on and understand a little bit more about what I missed and how everything works.
Kim: And I also listened to the other podcast with, the historical
Lisa: with JoAnn.
Kim: JoAnn. Yeah. And that was very interesting because a lot of that was the historical part of the program. So that was kind of interesting. It just wasn’t a lot about what goes on now.
Lisa: Right. And how. I mean, it does tie together, though, which I found kind fascinating. Sort of like when that story stops, then the H-2A story kind of picks up again.
Kim: It does. Yes. I mean, the history. You know, you guys had kind of talked about that the, Bracero Program was basically the first, step. And that was, like, in 1942. And Bracero basically means a foreign worker. And they did that until 1952. And that’s when they actually. The immigration and nationality act was implemented. And that is what H-2A stands for is it is the code, it is the section under that act. It’s the H-2A section that addresses that visa and what they can do. And so that started back in 1952. And then they did another round of immigration reform in 1986. And they split the H-2 category, it used to be just H-2 and then they split it into H-2A and H-2B. And H-2B, I get a lot of people call me for that. That is pretty much everything that is not agriculture. So H-2A is agriculture. And your business has to be an agricultural business. And the job has to be associated with agriculture. And H-2B would be, construction and those kinds of, and even hotel, you know, restaurants, hotels, stuff like that would all be under H-2B. But the problem with H-2B is the number of visas that the government will issue is capped every year. And H-2A has no cap. So if you put in, any employer can put in for an H-2A visa or get certified. H-2B, you have to put in, but then it goes into a lottery, because they always exceed how many visas are issued. So that’s a tough one.
Lisa: Interesting.
Kim: So I’m an H-2A agent. And basically what that is is I facilitate the application certification process for the farmer, the employer, to actually get certified to actually bring in foreign workers for a temporary period of time. That’s kind of it in a nutshell.
Lisa: Okay. But I’m sure there’s a ton more that goes into it than that.
Kim: There’s a ton. There’s a ton, yeah.
Lisa: So you’re an independent H-2A agent, right. You started your own business?
Kim: I did, I did. We used to. My husband farms. And, he’s used the H-2A program for probably. Oh, my gosh, I don’t know, it’s probably 20 years now, at least. And he had an agent out of Arkansas. And I believe that agent serviced several people around here, several employers used that agent. And he passed away unexpectedly. And my, husband was like, in a panic because it was January and you have to start the process three months before you need the workers. So, he was in a panic and he’s like, do you think you can do this? And my background is in government contracting. I’ve spent my entire career in government contracting. And, I said, well, I’m pretty sure, I’ve worked with so many different government agencies. They’re all like. And I had worked with our agent, so I was giving him a lot of the information for the process. So I just started studying and did our application. And then my husband just started telling everybody, and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, I need to get through one. And it just kind of snowballed from there. And that was about eight years ago.
Lisa: Oh, wow.
Kim: Yeah.
Lisa: Wow. So you really. It wasn’t maybe necessary. It was a matter of necessity at the time that turned into a career.
Kim: It. Yeah. And a lot of, them here, you know, that did use that old agent, panicked because it was the time to start for this area. And it kind of depends, you know, on what you’re farming, when you have to start that process, and when you need your workers to come in.
Lisa: Wow. So now you work with a lot of the different farmers here in the Western Slope?
Kim: I do probably. I have over 50 employers that I work with right now. And, in Palisade, there’s probably over 15 that I do just in Palisade. And then I do quite a bit in Western Colorado, different areas. And I have clients in New Mexico, Idaho, Arkansas, Alabama. It just kind of tends to grow. You really don’t have to be anywhere specific to do the process. It doesn’t matter because it’s all pretty much, doesn’t really matter where the farmer is. The application process is the same.
Lisa: That makes sense. So how does the whole process work? Like, just walk through, so three months before farmers…
Kim: Yeah. So the government’s, program, to apply for the H-2A certification, they have a limited time of when you can apply, and it has to be in between 60 days and 75 days before you need, before your start date. So if you need your workers here May 1st, you have to start the process in February. And I mean submit the application at that time, because it literally takes three months to go through all the processes. There’s at least four government agencies that you deal with along the way. And, you need all that three months. If there’s any hiccup in the process, you need the three months or you won’t get your guys at that time. They’ll be late. And so actually, to get to the point to submit, you have to start even sooner than that. So usually if I have a new client, if it’s somebody I’ve been doing for a long time. I pretty much have a lot of their information. We just have to update it each year. But if it’s a new client, I usually need two to four weeks to pull all their information together and gather it from them to get the application ready to submit.
Lisa: And the timing, we know, is very, very sensitive.
Kim: It is. And a lot of times I have farmers that are like, well, I’m not sure how many I’m going to need this year. You know, and it’s hard because you kind of have to decide. Because once that contract is certified, you can’t change anything. You can’t change the number of workers. If you decide, oh, I needed five more workers, once it’s certified, you can’t get more. You would have to put a whole new application in. And that’s costly for the farmer.
Lisa: So that’s tough. That’s sort of like a gamble. You just have to guess.
Kim: It is. That’s what farming is, it’s a big gamble. Right, right.
Lisa: The whole process.
Kim: So that process starts like I said, and the first step is you, we submit a job order to the state of Colorado’s foreign labor department. And so they go through the whole job order, make sure everything’s, within the regulations, and then they put that out. Once they approve it, then they put that out to the workforce centers all across the country. And then once they get it approved, then the next step is to actually file the application with the Department of Labor. And, that’s an electronic process. That’s the process that probably takes the longest because it probably takes at least four to six weeks for them to actually certify it. And there’s things that go on during that process. That’s when the workforce center will come out and inspect the housing. And that has to be done every single year, even if you have the same housing. And then they have to do a recruiting effort, the farmer does, because the whole process is to ensure that we don’t displace any domestic workers. So the farmer has to go through a process, if anybody applies for those jobs, because they’re out on a job platform out there, by law they have to interview them or at least consider them if they have the experience. And so we have to submit recruiting reports after that’s done to show the government what they’ve done. And if they had anybody apply.
Lisa: How often do they have people apply?
Kim: Not very often.
Lisa: OK, I’m curious about that because
Kim: Very low. I mean, I have a few employers that might have one or somebody come by. Sometimes they have no, they don’t, they’ve never worked on a farm or something like that. But I would say it’s very low. There’s, there just aren’t the people that want to work on a farm and want to only work for up to 10 months. That’s the longest a contract can be. So it’s difficult.
Lisa: That makes sense. That makes sense. Because they’re also trying to hire somebody within that seasonal range as well.
Kim: And you only have this job for, you know, some employers do a three month contract, some do eight months, some do ten months. But yeah, it’s a temporary job basically every year. So we don’t get very many people, domestic workers that apply. A lot of foreign workers apply because they see it too, because they can get on the Internet.
Lisa: OK. You’re like, not yet!
Kim: I know. And I have a lot of, farmers there are like, oh my gosh, my email is getting inundated with all these emails. I’m like, I know, but they’re all foreign workers and they don’t have an obligation to hire any foreign worker. So after that, after that whole process and the Department of Labor, then we’ll certify the contract, the next step is I have to submit a visa petition to customs and immigration. And that, believe it or not, is a manual process still. They are not electronic, so it’s an actual physical application that has to be filled out and actually have to overnight it to them so that I have proof that it got there. And then that can take them anywhere, it depends on how busy, you know, different seasons are busier than others just because everybody’s farming stuff at different times. And that process can take oh anywhere from two to three weeks maybe sometimes for them to approve the petition. And once that petition is approved, then we can go and find foreign workers and I get them visa appointments. I actually have an agent, a local representative in Monterey because that’s where we bring most of our workers, out of Mexico. And the largest processor of H-2A visas is Monterey consulate. So they go there, I schedule their visa appointments and my agent actually reaches out to the workers, kind of vets them, for the employer, if the employer knows who they want, vets them to make sure that they can actually get a visa. Because if they have any kind of, you know, criminal background or something like that, we don’t want the employer to pay the fee just to find out they’re gonna get denied.
Lisa: Yeah, that makes sense. And yeah, as time is so critical. I’m sure you don’t want to go through that whole process and not only the fee, but the time.
Kim: Yes. And Then the workers and my agent works with them to get them make sure that they get to the consulate on the day that their appointment is. And it’s a three day process they have to go through. So he kind of coordinates that for me with those workers down there and then they travel to the work site. That’s it in a nutshell.
Lisa: Wow, that’s amazing. I mean, I wonder how many hands touch each application.
Kim: You know, to me it’s crazy that the government and none of these agencies, are hooked together. The only thing that probably is, is the state agencies can access the Department of Labor’s certification system. So that’s. We used to have to submit those on paper. I used to have to fill those out and scan them and email them to the state. So we can now put that actually into their system. It’s called FLAG. But those are the only two that are integrated. So it’s a challenge. And just trying to keep track of all the dates and you know, milestones and stuff.
Lisa: That we have to in the process. And yeah, I’m seeing like a huge project plan.
Kim: It is.
Lisa: It seems like a lot of your stuff probably hits at about the same time too, so.
Kim: It does. So my. It’s funny, I always say that my husband’s busy season is my off season and my busy season is this slow season because I get really busy from December to May and then that’s when he starts getting busy is from May through September. So we kind of have October sometimes. Well he hunts so,
Lisa: So maybe December.
Kim: Yeah.
Lisa: No, not even. The first two weeks of December.
Kim: Right.
Lisa: Oh, that’s funny. Okay yeah, so that’s a lot. There’s a lot of steps there. And in theory, like we talked about, farmers could do this themselves.
Kim: Right.
Lisa: So, I think I know the answer, but just for conversation’s sake.
Kim: I mean there are, there are farmers that do do it themselves. But the thing is is trying to stay up on all the regulations which change constantly. That’s one hurdle that they would have to get past. The other thing is the technology part. I mean, I know my husband and you know, he uses a cell phone, but he does not want to spend his time at a computer. I mean they’re out in the field and that’s what they do. They don’t really have time and it is time consuming and it is a process that has to be monitored all through, all through the three months. Those are probably the two biggest reasons they don’t do it themselves.
Lisa: Just like anything where, yeah you could do yourself. But hiring an expert is gonna work a lot better.
Kim: Right.
Lisa: So how many workers do we have? I think you had mentioned we were a little bit, Iriana and I were a little bit low on that number.
Kim: I think I looked it up. I can’t remember. I want to say I think I email that to you.
Lisa: I think you said about 500.
Kim: That’s what I was thinking. It was around 500, yeah.
Lisa: And I think we had. She was like, I think we’re at about 400. So it seems like it’s really rapidly growing.
Kim: It is. Even just since I’ve been in the, you know, in doing this for eight years, it has grown significantly. The H-2A program itself, I think in the last 10 years, I can’t remember what the percentage growth is, but it’s huge. And a lot of that has to do with, I always say that after 9/11, believe it or not, our borders did get stricter because a lot of farmers could. Their workers would just come up and that’s just how it was. They would just show up and they would get across the border. Well, after 9/11, it was very difficult for workers to do that. And so it’s kind of forced a lot of the farmers into the program because they can’t get their workers their old ways.
Lisa: Interesting. So there’s no other option?
Kim: There really isn’t. There really isn’t. Unless you have, you know, a lot of local labor.
Lisa: Right. So as you say, I think everybody says this, H-2A program is critical for Palisade.
Kim: Yeah. I mean, it’s something you can’t live with, but you can’t live without. I mean, the cost to the farmers is a lot. They have to pay me, and then they have to pay application fees, and then they have to pay visa fees and they have to pay my local representative’s fee because he has to run them through. Then they have to also pay for all their travel and per diem and hotel costs to get them from their house to the consulate to here or to their work site. And they also have to send them home and pay for those expenses, if they complete 50% of their contract. So if a worker were to quit, and that happens, sometimes they have personal family issues or health issues and they have to quit for whatever reason. And the farmer doesn’t have to pay their expenses to go home if they don’t complete 50% of that contract.
Lisa: Interesting, makes sense. So, yeah. why is it so critical for Palisade.
Kim: Well, my husband says he can’t farm without it. I mean, there’s just no way, if you don’t have the labor to harvest and even to prune. I do a lot of employers actually do two contracts a year because the way the program is set up, they don’t allow staggered dates of need. So they don’t allow you to get a contract and bring in a few workers early, which a lot of farmers around here, because of trees and having to have them pruned and whatnot. They don’t need a whole crew. They don’t need 20 guys. They might need 10 or, you know, five to prune, and then they need to bump up come harvest. But the program does not allow that. We’ve tried to get that pushed through, and they still have not allowed it. So what they do to get around that is you have to do two contracts. So I have a lot of farmers that will bring in their pruning crews early, and then they augment it with another contract to add to the harvesting.
Lisa: And with the crops that we grow here, with the fruit, grapes, it isn’t something that can be automated, like in. Like a field of a hay. Or something.
Kim: Right. I hear it talked about a lot. But, you know, peaches and those kinds of fruits are just so delicate. I just don’t ever see those ever getting mechanized.
Lisa: Right. But there’s also just a very. Yeah. And there’s a certain amount of skill required when you’re pruning, you know, to know what to prune, how much, where.
Kim: I don’t even know. I look at them and think, how did they know what, you know, what branch to take off? It’s amazing. I mean, these workers that come up here, you know, every year. And a lot of the farmers that I work with, they bring back the same workers every year. They might have to replace one or two or whatever. But the majority of them, I would say, they tell me who they want to bring up. And they’re usually the same group of workers. Like in our, my husband’s farm, his workers are also all very closely related. They’re all related somehow through marriage or nephews or aunts and uncles. And they’re all kind of from the same area. And that’s common with a lot of other farmers, too, because you have these guys that are here for, you know, that many months, and they’re all living together, too. So that’s a challenge.
Lisa: Makes it easier to know somebody.
Kim: Yeah.
Lisa: Or maybe sometimes harder.
Kim: Exactly. I think. Yeah, I’ve heard that too from some of my employers.
Lisa: Right. So, I mean, any of our fruit, any of the crops here, it’s like the thinning of the peaches is something that’s a skill. And then knowing when to harvest and rounds of harvesting. So really, when you just think about the amount of effort that goes into this, it’s like, human effort that’s required.
Kim: Yeah. It’s so labor intense. And there’s just. I just don’t know how, you know, unless you’re a very small farm. But if you’re of any significant, you know, even smaller farms. I do a lot of smaller farms, but they still need that two or three guys or workers, you know, to come in, even though they’re small. I do some that only bring in one worker, so.
Lisa: It makes the difference.
Kim: Yeah.
Lisa: So you mentioned your husband’s farm a little bit. So I think it’s funny you refer to it that way, because whenever there’s, something that, I’m, not interested in having anything to do with, I refer to it as my husband’s whatever.
Kim: Yeah. We kind of keep things separate. I do the books for my husband’s farm, but that’s kind of about it. Our kids helping farm now that they’re older. So, yeah, I kind of like, that’s his business.
Lisa: Ok.
Kim: And then I have my business.
Lisa: I love that.
Kim: That’s why somebody asked me something about fruit. I’m like, oh, don’t ask me. I’m not an expert. I know about H-2A. I said, but I don’t know. Don’t put me out there to farm. That’s for sure. I can only tell you what I’ve seen.
Lisa: I love it. I just thought that was. That’s really funny. So it’s Noland Orchards.
Kim: It is. Yeah. Noland Orchards.
Lisa: And so that’s been, you guys, he has been around for quite a while.
Kim: Yes. So, my husband’s father, purchased the land up there on East Orchard Mesa. I think it was in the 60s, early 60s. He came from a farming background, then went in the military and worked for Aerojet General down in Denver. And so he was trying to find a farm, and he went to go look, I think it was a sheep farm down around Alamosa or something. And he went there, and the guy that was gonna sell it passed away the day that he. Or a day before he went there. So it wasn’t for sale. So I guess he drove around this way and came through here and he bought this peach orchard. And it was real small. And that was before Glenwood Canyon was, it was a lot smaller. It took a long time to get from Denver to Glenwood. And my husband said that him and his dad would come and mom would come up and farm every weekend until they actually moved here. I could not imagine that.
Lisa: From Denver?
Kim: From Denver, every weekend. They’d leave Friday and come back Sunday. Yeah.
Lisa: Wow. And they were. I think they were local legends. I didn’t.
Kim: Yeah.
Lisa: Get to meet them at all.
Kim: Yeah, a lot of people. My father in law passed away about five years ago. But, yeah, he was just. He was big in the Lions Club and he just. Everybody loved him. He was a great guy.
Lisa: So, on your farm do you bring in H-22A workers to help?
Kim: We do. We bring in 26.
Lisa: I think that was a dumb question because that is what we started with talking about.
Kim: That’s okay.
Lisa: That’s how you got into this. Okay. 26.
Kim: So yeah, we bring in 26 workers. Yeah. And we bring them in from the beginning of May to the beginning of September. So our workers just got here a couple weeks ago.
Lisa: Okay. And so have you had the same people who’ve come back year after year? Have you gotten to know some people over the years?
Kim: Pretty much, yeah. Like I said, they’re all sort of related. And in fact we just had one of our workers had worked for the farm, I want to say 40 plus years. He was old and older, I should say. And I think it was two years ago, he told my husband, I’m, not gonna be back. And he said he was crying. It was right when they were leaving. It was so, so cute. And he was like, I’m just getting old and you know this gonna be my last year. But then he kept coming and he came up this year, but he got sick and they told him that he had cancer.
Lisa: Gosh, it’s just such a big part of your life. 40 years.
Kim: Yeah. We had to send him home.
Lisa: I’m sorry.
Kim: Yeah. So it was hard for my husband because he’s literally worked with this guy ever since he was a kid.
Lisa: Wow.
Kim: Yeah. So.
Lisa: Yeah. That’s amazing.
Kim: That, like I said, that just happened. We just sent him home last week, so.
Lisa: Yeah, it’s sweet that he kept coming back though.
Kim: I know. I just thought that was so funny because he’s like, I’m gonna leave. This is my last year. And then he came back for three more years because he wanted to do it, he wanted to, he enjoyed it. And you know, they don’t, they make a lot of money for a short period of time and it’s really important for them and their families back there. A lot of them that come up here also farm back there. They have their own little farms.
Lisa: So what are some of the other stories that have really resonated with you just from people that you’ve met over the years?
Kim: I mean H-2A stories, I probably have 5 million of them. I’ve probably heard it all. But, yeah, it’s funny just dealing with different, you know, farmers are kind of funny. They’re kind of a different breed, you know, and, they don’t like all these regulations, which I don’t either, but, you know, it’s hard to kind of keep them under control because it’s like, I know, but this is what has to be done or you have to provide this to get certified. And so it’s funny, I mean, I have a lot of conversations with farmers that, and I know a lot of them that I’ve known them over years. So, they’re real openly honest and blunt about what they don’t like. And it’s just kind of funny. I kind of know each of their quirks and some of them don’t want any email, they don’t want to text, they want a phone call. Some want to see you in person. So I kind of know every farmer is a little different. You know, how they want to get their work done, and I kind of accommodate that. I don’t know if you went to a big agency if they would do that, but I kind of know how they are and I know which ones want their stuff a certain way, you know, or want the communication a certain way. So I always find that funny. And I noticed the younger farmers now that I’m kind of getting some younger farmers. And they’re all into, you know, the texting. And they’ll be texting me, you know, 24/7 on the weekends and everything. So there is one good thing about not texting or calling. But those, those situations are always kind of interesting. Getting to know all these farmers and their little quirks.
Lisa: I love it. Yeah. And then you just give that personal touch.
Kim: Yeah.
Lisa: How about some of the workers? Are there any stories you’ve heard or anybody that you’ve heard back?
Kim: I probably have one little funny story. I had two new employers. One last year, two now, both in Idaho. And they wanted their workers from Nicaragua. And I was like, well, okay, they knew who they were. I think they have a like vacation home there or something, these farmers do. And so they knew these workers because they work on their house there. But that was really a challenge because I don’t have someone in Nicaragua that can show these guys who have never been out of the country how to go get a passport, how to go the consulate, how to go get a picture for your visa that you have to bring to the consulate, all this stuff. I was contemplating making a trip to Managua and running these guys through myself because I was so panicked about how am I going to do that. And I told the employer straight up, I said, I’ve never gotten anybody from there. I said, but you know, if you can help, we can maybe figure this out. But I actually ended up, my agent in Monterey actually helped me out. And it’s funny because even though they both speak Spanish, the dialect is very different. So he said he, it was a big challenge getting over that dialect difference. But he was instrumental in helping me get with those guys and get them through the consulate because he has first hand knowledge of exactly what happens and how they have to go through and what they need to do. So that was interesting. I feel a little more comfortable now, but when first started out,
Lisa: So it worked?
Kim: It did work. Yeah, I got, yeah, I got two guys in last year and then four guys this year for two different farmers up there in Idaho.
Lisa: Wow. Yeah. You didn’t have a lot of time to figure that out, I’m sure. Same situation where it’s like, okay.
Kim: Yeah but you know, the Internet and technology is wonderful. And so, you know, years ago I just don’t know how you would do it. But with WhatsApp and everything, everybody around the world uses that. And, you know, you can translate and speak to people. So it’s funny how technology has made it so much easier to communicate with people.
Lisa: Right? Drastically. So you don’t speak Spanish?
Kim: Very little. Very little. I can read it a lot better than I can speak it because I email with my agent in Spanish. And so I can read it if I see something, I know what it says.
Lisa: Yeah.
Kim: But if I have to speak it, yeah, I’m no good.
Lisa: I’m the same. I’ve tried!
Kim: I’ve taken lessons. I took lessons after I started doing this, and it helped a little. But you really have to be immersed in it and speaking it every day.
Lisa: Yeah, totally.
Kim: My husband speaks Spanish. He’ll tell you he doesn’t. He says, I just speak peach Spanish. I said, okay. And then he’s out there talking to them. Or if we go to Mexico, he talks to them. I’m like, I thought you didn’t know Spanish? He does.
Lisa: That’s nice, though. Yeah, I know, like, restaurant Spanish.
Kim: Yeah, exactly.
Lisa: How to get to the bathroom, how to order.
Kim: Exactly.
Lisa: Food and drinks. That’s about it.
Kim: Right, yeah.
Lisa: That’s funny. That’s. That’s really interesting. An interesting challenge. So you mostly work with people from Mexico, then?
Kim: Primarily, yeah. I’ve brought in workers from Honduras before, but mainly Mexico. Just for one thing, it’s cheaper for the employers, just logistically, to get them here. I do have a new employer down in Montrose that this is his first year in H-2A, but he’s actually got another place I think, that he’s looking to buy in Oregon. But he’s talking about bringing people in from South Africa, I think, because they have a lot of greenhouse experience or something. So we’ll see how that goes.
Lisa: Yeah. Well, that could be a fun trip. Go to wine country in South Africa.
Kim: Yeah. It’s funny. Once they. Once these farmers get their workers, I usually don’t hear from them. I don’t hear from them unless there’s a problem. And usually the problem is, how do I get rid of this worker? Or, you know, what do I do? This guy lost his passport. Or, you know, they’re stories like that. Otherwise, if everything’s going good, I don’t hear from that farmer until I contact them, the next year to say, hey, do you need to start the process again? If everything’s going great, I don’t hear from them. Usually if I do, there’s an issue, and it’s usually has something to do with the worker. Yeah. Or they’re, you know, getting audited or something, and they don’t have their paperwork or they misplaced it or they want my advice on some of that.
Lisa: How often do people get audited? Is it regular?
Kim: Well, the government, so there’s several different kinds of audits. The Department of Labor, the foreign labor certification that handles the H-2A program, they can do a desk audit up to three years after, the contract. And that’s just. They will send you, you know, an email or you’ll get it in the mail and it says, we want, you know, provide us information on all this, whether it’s payroll records or whatever. Those aren’t very, you know, they’re not difficult. And then they submit that and you can get a response. And sometimes they’ll say, oh, you know, this is out of compliance. And they’ll just be like, correct that. You know, if it happened multiple times, you’d probably get fined. The bigger audit that most of the farmers hate and are scared to death of is the FSLA audit, which is just the Department of Labor that any employer can get audited. And that’s wage and hour division. And they’ll usually send a team over. Say for here, they’d send it over from Denver, and they just show up unannounced. And they can cover everything that has to do with wage and hour laws and all your H-2A regulations all at once. And, I think they were here. I don’t know if they came last year or the year before, but they didn’t hit many, too many farmers that year. It just, it just, you know, it’s just kind of a crap shoot. You don’t know when it’s going to happen. But that’s the scariest one. And they’ll do all the OSHA field stuff too, so they’re pretty, intense. When they’re in town, usually all the farmers are calling each other hey, department of labor is and town, warning everybody. Yeah.
Lisa: And that just highlights how important the record keeping is.
Kim: Right, right.
Lisa: to be able to have all that at your fingertips.
Kim: Right. And that’s just all. That’s all in addition to all the H-2A regulations, it’s just all the employment laws, that they’ll cover.
Lisa: Well, that’s stressful.
Kim: Yeah, it is. I think the worst part is, I think the worst part is having them show up unannounced, you know, because when you’re not prepared, you know, at least if you know they’re going to show up, you can kind of get your stuff together and be ready for it. And they can basically take a worker and they take them aside and they will ask them questions. And you cannot even be part of that discussion. So you have to make sure your workers, you know that everything that you’re doing, everything you’re supposed to, legally. Because if they ask them a question, they’re going to probably be honest, I would assume, and just answer the question, like, oh, are you getting breaks? You know, or now there’s heat laws, you know, there’s a lot of different agricultural laws that went into effect the last couple years in Colorado. So that are different from federal laws. So. Yeah. Over time for Colorado, agriculture went into effect. They phased it in three years ago. But federally, agriculture is exempt from premium overtime. But Colorado changed their laws three years ago, kind of following California. Unfortunately, Colorado tends to do that. And so now that’s really a burden on employers. Because if you have to pay premium overtime on agricultural labor, that’s a huge expense.
Lisa: Yeah.
Kim: Huge. And the thing is, is you don’t know. I mean, sometimes, you know, guys won’t have to work a full day in the spring. There’s not enough work. But then during harvest, if you have a lot more fruit maybe than what you estimated, they’re gonna be really working a lot of hours.
Lisa: Right, yeah. That’s just another piece that’s really hard to estimate. And again, yeah, it sort of goes hand in hand with what farming is. It’s just a whole big rush.
Kim: It is, it is, it is. It’s funny though, I used to think that when I married my husband and then I was like, well, you know, CPAs go through that. They have their crunch, you know, at tax time. And there’s a lot of professions that are like that where you have that big crunch where you’re working a lot for several months.
Lisa: So I know that a hot topic is always, well, what do you think is going to happen in the future?
Kim: Right.
Lisa: No one can predict what’s happening in the future. But do you see anything changing or staying the same?
Kim: You know. I. There’s some grumblings. I think there’s a proposal to revise the H-2A program again. They just did that a few years ago, but trying to make it so that it’s more of a system where they could just bring the workers in and they don’t have to be, I think what it is is the worker gets kind of certified and then they can come and work for up to three years at various employers without having each employer doing these separate certifications. Because a lot of H-2A workers do not so much maybe here, but a lot of H-2A workers jump from employer to employer, so they follow the crops. So if they were working here, then maybe they go and harvest something else in Minnesota or somewhere there that harvest later. A lot of workers do that and they can have H-2A visas, but they have to be transferred over to the other contract, which is kind of a complicated process and it costs the employer, too, to do that. But they’re already here, so they don’t have to go back and get another H-2 visa. But, they can do that continually and be in the United States for up to three years on, H-2A visa, but then they have to exit the country for a certain amount of months and then come back. So they’re trying to simplify it a little bit more. I think it’d be great if something like that would happen, but I have my doubts that it will. I had a lot of, employers that were very concerned after the election. They called me. What’s going to happen, you know, are we going to have a hard time getting our guys? And I said. I said, I do not believe so. Because when Trump was in office, during Covid, and it’s interesting, but a lot of people don’t know that that is the only visa that you could enter into the country at that time. That was the only visa that he, you know, made an exception. That H-2A visas were the only visas that somebody could get in when everything was closed down, when the borders were closed. And, I mean, it had to be, because if we didn’t have workers, we wouldn’t have food.
Lisa: No. Food would just be rotting the fields and yeah.
Kim: So I just always felt confident that, you know, it’s. He’s not gonna. He actually uses the H-2A contract. I think he has a vineyard up in northern New York.
Lisa: Yeah. So the essential nature of it should be well understood by everybody.
Kim: Right. Right.
Lisa: Yeah. Interesting. I’m curious about just you personally, like, what brought you to Palisade and what keeps you here or has kept you here.
Kim: Well, my husband brought me here. I did not plan on that. I just happened to meet him through my best friend that had moved here. And I came up and I told her, the last thing I want to do is meet somebody. I lived in Golden. I don’t want to meet somebody 225 miles from me. And next thing you knew, that’s how I came here. And, like I said, I was in government contracting for environmental firms pretty much my whole career. And back then, this was 30 years ago, we had our vice president of the company that I worked for was really computer literate. And he’s like, oh, I think you could work, you know, and I could get you hooked up into our computers. I mean, nobody knew about this. I was, ans this was still dial up, let me remind you. And, it worked out. And I would go spend. I could work remotely here. I worked remote before that was even a thing. I never even told anybody that I dealt with that I was working from my house. Cause they would think that’s crazy. And I would work here three weeks and then I’d go back down to Golden and spend one week in the office there. And I did that for, quite a few years. And then I, started working for another environmental firm that I’m kind of a very small part owner of. And that firm is all remote. Everybody’s remote and that. So that’s kind of how I ended up here.
Lisa: So you might have been one of the first remote workers.
Kim: I pretty much think I am. Because when Covid happened, first of all, our company, the company I worked for, we were all remote. And, it didn’t even change anything for us. We didn’t miss a beat because it was like. Well, it was just like normal.
Lisa: My husband and I were both remote too. Before at the time, it was like. Well, everybody was struggling with it and we’re like, we already adapted to this.
Kim: Yeah, it’s. Yeah. So, yeah, I think definitely when I did it 30 years ago, I’m sure I was like one of the only people that was working remote. Having to upload things on dial up was a challenge.
Lisa: Yeah. So what has changed in Palisade in the past 30 years since you’ve been here?
Kim: Oh my gosh. Here it’s changed a lot. We used to laugh because we used to say that Palisade, you know, rolled up the sidewalks at five, six o’clock at night because there was nothing. I mean, there just was nothing down here. I mean, we had no restaurants per se. Where 357 is, there was a cafe there. And there was actually a cafe, down where the Mexican place is now. And that was just a breakfast cafe. And then over at 357, a couple different owners went through that, but they weren’t ever open very long. And the grocery store, the front used to face this way and it was real tiny. And I used to say you’d have to go in there and blow the dust off of the cans if you wanted to go in there. Now, it’s great. I mean, they carry so much good stuff now. I go in there a lot, so. So, yeah, it’s definitely for the better. I know a lot of people complain about people moving here and stuff, but it’s like you can’t. I feel like a town, to stay viable, you have to grow. You have to grow somehow. Now I think Palisade’s done a good job at limiting and managing that growth. But I still think you have to grow to survive. Because my dad came from a small town and I’ve seen those effects are just not good.
Lisa: No, no. Like change is inevitable. I grew up in a really small town too and it’s gone the opposite way.
Kim: oh really?
Lisa: The elementary school closed and now, it’s just like, well, this is done for.
Kim: It like that’s how the town that my dad grew up in in southeastern Colorado, it’s just almost like a ghost town. The only thing that keeps it going is it’s a county seat. So the courthouse is there. But when I was down there last, all the main, street windows were boarded up. You know, there’s people there, but there’s just not. There’s no new businesses or industry. So I think, I think Palisade’s done a good job.
Lisa: Yeah. It’s a struggle but I think what’s helpful is they’re thoughtful about it. They really do seem to be.
Kim: Yeah.
Lisa: Just debating how to keep what people want in place and balance everything.
Kim: Right. Which is a challenge. Yeah, it’s a challenge. It’s funny because I do hear some people complain about people moving in, but I’m like, well, you got it. You came here. It’s funny. I’m like, it’s okay when you moved here. I don’t hear that as much from people that have been around here forever, but it’s been great. I think everything that’s here now is awesome. I mean you can. We don’t go into town, we used to call it into town, into Grand Junction, you know, to eat as much because we can just go here.
Lisa: Yeah.
Kim: And we have choices. That’s good. And then just all the activities now are great. Yeah, yeah. It’s been good.
Lisa: Thank you so much for you speaking to me. I think this is really helpful and definitely a critical piece just to understand better how everything fits together and works here.
Kim: Right, right.
Lisa: So I appreciate that.
Kim: It’s a big. I mean they’re a big impact on the community and I mean everybody just relies on them so much. You know, I know a lot of farmers, they get so excited when their workers are coming. Their workers are going to be here. Yeah. So, yeah, it’s part of the community for sure.
Lisa: Yep. Absolutely. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Kim.
Kim: You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.
Lisa: Of course.
Kim: I just. I know there’s just a lot of people like I said I listen to your podcast all the time, and, when they first come, I’m always telling people, did you know there’s a Palisade podcast? Because there’s so many businesses that I did not even know of. I mean, that you’ve interviewed. And I’m like, oh, I didn’t know that was here. I didn’t know that person does that here, you know, so it was interesting. I’ve been here 30 years and I didn’t know of some of these, so it’s. Yeah, it’s interesting. I’ve learned a lot. And I think that’s same thing with H-2A. I don’t think a lot of people. People understand, the whole process that’s involved with it.
Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. Because if you don’t look closely, if you’re not kind of around and seeing what’s happening, it would be easy to miss.
Kim: Yeah, absolutely.
Lisa: I so appreciated hearing from Kim that she had more context that would help better explain the H-2A program’s importance to Palisade. If you ever hear anything on the podcast that you think I didn’t get quite right, or an important detail I missed, or if you just have a good, related story to tell, let me know! You can always reach me at lisa(at)postcardsfrompalisade.com.
The podcast’s theme music is Riverbend by Geoff Roper.
Thanks for listening. With love, from Palisade.