Podcast: Postcards From Palisade

Today, we’re taking a deep dive into the farewell dinner that La Plaza hosts each year to honor and celebrate the efforts of that year’s migrant farm workers.

Join me as I find out what it takes to prepare and serve dinner and a party to more than 100 migrant farm workers and their families, to say thanks (and see you next year)!

 

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Transcript:

(fade in to sound of cheering)

This is Postcards From Palisade. I’m Lisa McNamara. Today, we’re taking a deep dive into the farewell dinner that La Plaza hosts each year to honor and celebrate the efforts of that year’s migrant farm workers.

Join me as I find out what it takes to prepare and serve dinner and a party to more than 100 migrant farm workers and their families, to say thanks (and see you next year).

Dinner guest: Gracias! Hasta luego!

Iriana: Hasta luego! My name is Iriana Medina and I am the executive director at La Plaza. The purpose of the farewell dinner, it’s to honor and say thank you to the workers for the hard work that they’ve done throughout the season. We just have a, not just, but we have the chef volunteer who puts her crew of volunteers for the kitchen together and then we get, we do our part on getting a crew of volunteers too to put this together. You know, the party part, like, you know, setting all the chafing dishes, all the food, bringing it out here, tables, chairs, all the logistics that a party has, pretty much. Music, of course, because music is very important.

We also collect donations throughout the year, things that could be useful for them and that they could bring home with them because they, throughout the season, they collect and buy stuff to bring over to their families. And so this is a little bit of something to bring home with them for the families.

They wait for this, and this year we moved it to August because usually we have the dinners on the second week of the month, but by the second week of September, many of them are gone. So we noticed last year that a lot of people missed it. So we wanted to, we were mindful about this. And so this year we’re having another dinner in September, but the farewell, we decided to do it in August so a lot more people could come and enjoy this event that’s made for them.

It’s very festive because they know that there are prizes, they know that there’s not going to be services pushed on them. Not that they get, that we push services on them, it is that, they need services while they are here. So in these dinners, the main purpose during the season is that they can connect with other services that provide, that have programs that are different than ours so that they know they’re available and that they can connect with them directly and be beneficiaries of these services, that those other agencies in the valley have. Tonight, it’s merely fun. And dinner, food, music, prizes. And a big thank you.

(cheering fades out)

LM: The day before, Tuesday, Lynn Foster (aka Chef Lynn), that’s how she’s in my phone, Robin Gale, and I sat down in the dining room at the La Plaza building. La Plaza hosts dinners each month, called resource nights. Chef Lynn plans the menu for the monthly dinners and for the farewell dinner, sources the ingredients, puts together the work plan, schedules volunteers, and cooks much of the meal.

Lynn spends all day Monday shopping and delivering ingredients to La Plaza. Tuesday is the hard prep day in the La Plaza kitchen. Tuesday morning, Chef Lynn reviewed the farewell dinner menu and work plan with Robin and me.

Lynn: Good morning.

Lisa: Good morning. Okay, so just be yourself.

Lynn: I am. So we’re gonna do. Here’s the menu. Roast pork that Larry’s cooking that’s gonna come at four tomorrow, 3 to 4 o’clock. And we’re gonna shred it up with green chili sauce that I’m gonna try and dream up and make good. And rice, beans, shredded lettuce with radishes and pickled carrots. Watermelon, apple pie with cinnamon whipped cream.

Lisa: Okay.

All together: And the corn. And jalapenos. Oh, and of course, pickled jalapenos.

Lynn: And don’t forget, we’re also shucking 100 ears of corn and we’re gonna make that into street corn somehow.

Lisa: Sounds great.

Lynn: I know. Should be. And we’re expecting 100 people.

Robin: And it’s 100 degrees.

Lynn: And it’s 100 degrees and there you go.

Lisa: All right, so what are we doing today, then?

Lynn: Okay, so the corn is in there. I don’t know where you want to do it. Depending on what you’re more comfortable with. You can sit down and do it. You’re gonna make a big mess so I wouldn’t even worry about it. I’d just sweep it up when you’re done. Gail got to do this last time.

Lisa: We may want to sit.

Robin: We may want to sit. Yeah, I’m thinking like a corn shucking party.

Lynn: Yeah.

Robin: So many times we really have to stand. But I think that’s something we can just do sitting.

Lynn: And I’m gonna sort of run around to begin with and just get anchored because I want to start beans. I meant to be making the green chili, but then I forgot the green chilies. That’s okay. I can start it today. So I want to put my rice…

Robin: I have green chilies.

Lynn: No, I have them.

Robin: Oh, just not with you.

Lynn: Right.

Robin: They’re at home.

Lynn: So they’re all in the refrigerator. No, I have a whole big bag of big jims that I got at the market on Sunday and…

Robin: Yeah, that’s exactly what I got.

Lynn: Yeah, love them. I love that guy. All right.

Robin: Okay.

Lynn: So, yeah, here we go.

Lisa: Alright, let’s do it. Corn.

Robin: My hand will be very tired. And that’s using this. Using my brain.

Lynn: Mine would be crippled. Okay, ready?

(corn chopping and shucking sounds)

Robin: Look at that.

Lisa: That’s pretty great. I oh, I didn’t do that one very well. Do we want any knob left on this side, or do you think we want it totally off?

Robin: No, I think we take the knob off.

Lisa: Okay.

Robin: This part of the knife. The heel.

(corn chopping and shucking sounds)

Lisa: I’m going to have to refine my technique a little bit.

LM: OK, imagine these noises continuing for an hour, which is about how long it took the two of us to get through the corn. After Chef Lynn, Robin, and I worked through Tuesday morning and got a good chunk of prep done, we took a break and I asked Lynn to explain how she plans the menus each month, where she sources the food, and why it’s so important to her to make a delicious meal with high-quality ingredients.

Lynn: I think about it a lot. Like, depending on what we have, how many people are going to have, you know, at the beginning of the summer, I think we only did 38 and now we’re doing 100. And this will be the third time we’ve done a hundred people. So depending on what we have, I write a list, decide what I’m going to do, see who my volunteers are. So for instance, this time we just shucked a hundred ears of corn because we’re going to attempt to make street corn on the fly on a griddle. And I just kind of work it from there. And depending. So we have a stove with eight burners, but it doesn’t have ovens. So we’re extra challenged. So I’ve got to have something I can boil or cook on actual flame burners. Or we have a butane griddle outside that we use out there. So those are what we have to work with. Or sometimes we talk a lovely neighbor into roasting all the pork for us, which will arrive tomorrow, which is great. So it just kind of works itself.

This time I’m doing apple pies, which I happened to source from Sam’s Club. But they’re delicious. But to make them a little fun, I’m gonna make fresh cinnamon whipped cream, which I think will go over big. And our members are just, they’re so appreciative. And this time, we do watermelon almost every time, because we know they’re dehydrated. They’ve been working so hard all day. Make sure there’s lettuce and there has to be pickled jalapenos. Our members, our farm workers, love whole pickled jalapenos, which can only be found from one location. And oftentimes they’re out. So. And I get the number 10, which is a restaurant size can for them. And they eat them all.

The lower the stature of the person, the higher the quality I’m going for. I start on Monday, I come to La Plaza, I pick up some gift cards. I go to first I go to Sam’s Club. Yesterday that’s where I got the meat and the pies and the limes. Then I go to Shamrock and get the pickled jalapenos. And then I go to Walmart, who has what I think is the best selection of and the most reasonably priced Mexican ingredients, to get my jalapeno, my roma tomatoes, my white onions. And this time we have a special lady that comes down from Olathe and brings a truckload of corn every day. So I communicated with her and along with the grocery shopping, I picked up a hundred ears from the corn lady in front of the Jiffy Lube.

And, and you know, and then, okay, so Monday I go gather it all up. Had to drop the pork off. Come here. They help me unload, get it in the refrigerators. Then at 8:00 last night, I knew where there were really good watermelons. So I went and bought three really good watermelons. Because it’s so worth it. Like it’s just so. For me, it’s so worth it. Like, if I’ve always said if I’m gonna work this hard, it should be really good, otherwise why would I work so hard?

Okay, so then Tuesday, this is our Tuesday. And now we prep. And I get really willing people to come in and do the really heavy prepping. While I’m running around putting the rest of it together, I’m making the first vat of green chili sauce I’ve ever made. And I know what I want it to taste like. We’ll see how it turns out. I can make anything pretty good to eat, so I can just sort of throw it out there.

So then that’s today and we’ll finish this up. I’ll go home and rest up and then we come back tomorrow and we will finish everything up. Get it ready. We’re having, the guys have been coming in at five, but now they need to stay in the fields longer. So I’m happy to know that we’re going to start not till 6:30 so we can get more guys.

And as an aside thing, one of my favorite things is seeing these guys that have worked so hard that maybe, you know, you sort of have the. They all. You think they all know each other, but maybe they don’t. They’re from different parts of Mexico. And so to get here, to come here and socialize and hang out with each other and then eat a really good home cooked meal that’s so satisfying and they’re so appreciative.

Geri just rolled in and Geri makes a lot of stuff happen. For me as a volunteer opportunity, the fact that I can be here and it’s not formal is why I can be here. Because I’m not formal. I’m not a committee. And again, they just work with me, whether it’s how cranky I get or…

LM: Geri had brought over a huge chile relleno burrito from “the burrito lady” and as Lynn and I chatted, Geri carved us off generous slices. Throughout the day, La Plaza staff pop in and out of the kitchen, offering samples of whatever snack they’re having, taste-testing our dishes, and giving advice. After we enjoyed a delicious little burrito snack, I asked Lynn why she volunteers to plan and create these meals. Geri was quick to pipe in.

Geri: Because she’s wonderful!

Lynn: This is my third full year, and I tell people, this takes a lot out of me. I’m almost 72 years old, but I still love to do this. And not everybody can do this. First of all, I’m a generous person by nature. And then I. You know, I have famous friends. They write cookbooks. They are on. I have one friend that’s all over Food Network. God bless her, and yay. But all I ever wanted to do was literally feed people. I’m very clear on that. That I just want to feed people. So anytime I can think up a time to feed people, I do. Then, this is an enormous effort. It’s an enormous undertaking. But to know that I can still pull it off and that those hundred people all get something, there’s a portion for everybody. It’s. It’s like food that shocks them. It’s so good. I think that it’s a little bit, like, macho ego or something, or just there’s a small part of that, just like. Well, because I’m. And my husband says to me, when I first met. When I was first with my husband, I went off to feed 120 kids in Baltimore, and I made meatloaf with them in a small kitchen. And he was like, who’s paying for this? And he quickly learned never to ask such a silly question again, because it’ll get paid for somehow. And if part of it is mine, that doesn’t even occur to me, because there’s a mission here. We’re going to make this meal. We’re going to have a great time. And, you know, and I’m tired for three days after I do this.

Robin said, yeah, I needed Advil after a couple hours with Lynn. And it’s true, especially the schlepping. And of course, I have to get you guys to do that now. I did a lot more of that for so. I worked pedal to the metal for 20 years straight. Just worked myself and loved it because I love cooking and I love food, and I love anytime I can learn a new thing. What was I was telling you today, I learned the other day in Sam’s Club, a Mexican woman said to me, oh, those pinto beans look so fresh. Where’d you get them? I said, well, you know, they’re right there on the shelf. I didn’t realize pinto beans. I know that beans can get old, but I didn’t realize I could look at them and know from the color. So I learned a new thing that day.

LM: The La Plaza kitchen is not huge. It’s a commercial kitchen, but it’s tight. And during dinner prep or tamale making, it has to do many things at once.

Lynn: So in the three years I’ve been here, this place has come up a long way. When I first came in here it was Liz and Shad Dirks. I just put out on Facebook, I’m cleaning the migrant kitchen. Do you want to come help me? And they showed up. Well, Liz like dazzled. Oh my God. That woman just, you know, restaurant animals, you know them when you see them. And Shad too. And he and I, we also do the tamales, which I didn’t want to do tamales but I do the tamales and we do. Our record was one Christmas we did 562 tamales. And again that’s a three day process too. But so they came. I know I’ve thrown out, I’m not exaggerating 90 pairs of those stupid plastic tongs you get when you get carry out food that don’t work and they break. And every time I come in and find more I just throw those out too. But at any rate, back in the day they used to feed the migrants every day. So we had like 200 plastic glasses like you’d see in a diner. And so we just have been purging and purging and trying to keep it to what we do use and also bringing in equipment that we do need.

For two of those years we were sharing a refrigerator with our friend Oscar who owns El Rey Mexican Food. And we all worked out of a single door professional refrigerator. And it was, it was a challenge. And now we have a double door refrigerator all to ourselves. That’s amazing.

Lisa: And Oscar has his own restaurant!

Lynn: But we have this used stove that just doesn’t do much. It only, it has eight burners. It served its time. It belonged to one of the restaurants in downtown Grand Junction. For a long time. They donated it to us. My philosophy is stop taking donated equipment in a setting like this, because it costs you money and it doesn’t work right. But at any rate, so we’re now working on getting a new stove which we’ve got some donations and I think we’re close and I may go, we like to go to the farm market and introduce our, I may put on my chef’s coat and go take a little tin cup and see if I can raise the money. Because we really do. When we have a stove, we’ve got a fully, that kitchen can do anything. Like my challenge, but I keep trying anyway, is to make decent rice. Cause it can’t get hot enough soon enough. We’ve come close. It’s been edible, but I haven’t like, nailed it. And, I mean, it’s rice for goodness sake.

LM: So that’s what goes into the menu planning and ingredient sourcing, as well as the creativity and flexibility that is needed to make these meals come together.

Let me just recap the menu for the farewell dinner. This is all made by hand, from scratch. We’re having:

• Roasted pork smoked offsite by Robin’s husband, Larry (as an aside, the previous month, the pork had been donated and cooked to perfection by Matt Payne of Chicken Grit Farms).

• Continuing, warm green chili to serve with the pork.

• Spanish rice with tomatoes, onions, seasoning (where I learned there is such a thing as tomato bouillon!), carrots, and peas.

• Pinto beans, seasoned with fresh Mexican oregano and cooked up from dry beans.

• Shredded iceberg lettuce with chopped scallions, grated radishes, and picked carrots. More on the shredded lettuce soon…

• Wedged limes.

• Whole picked jalapenos (which, yeah, those come from a can).

• Sliced black diamond watermelon, because it’s tastier than “regular” watermelon.

• Street corn, made from the best sweet corn from Olathe’s corn lady, parboiled, then grilled by Tyler Hopkinson (outside in 100 degree heat), then topped with a particular brand of lime mayo, chili powder, and cotija cheese.

• For dessert, apple pies (from Sam’s Club due to the lack of oven), topped with homemade cinnamon whipped cream.

• Oh, and I forgot, the tortillas that needed to be steamed at the last secondto bring the whole meal together.

Phew, that’s a lot, right?

So day one, Tuesday, was hard prep day – taking care of the things that take time and that can be done in advance. Shucking the corn, grating the radishes, starting the beans. And always dishes, constant loads of dishes, run through the small, very warm and very noisy commercial dishwasher.

On day two, Wednesday, Chef Lynn, Robin and I were back at it. Day two is execution day. Earlier in the day, the soft things can be done, things like shredding the iceberg lettuce.

Now, if it was me making this meal, I would buy large bags of pre-shredded iceberg lettuce and call it a day. I buy pre-shredded lettuce for myself at home and it’s good enough, right?

It is not good enough for Chef Lynn. Let me tell you about Chef Lynn’s method for producing the best shredded iceberg lettuce:

• First, you start with whole heads of iceberg lettuce.

• Cutthe heads into quarters, then run each quarter through a mandolin slicer.

• Place the shredded pieces into a big bowl of ice water to soak as you work.

• There’s always pieces that won’t go through the mandolin, so I slice them by hand because I can’t bear to throw them away.

• Once the bowl fills up with shredded lettuce, rinse and drain it in the food prep sink.

• Then spin the shredded lettuce in a salad spinner in small batches (no more than 3 handfuls at a time) to fully drain off the water.

• Line a large tub with paper towels. Put the drained lettuce in the tub up to one inch deep.

• Add another layer of paper towels and another layer of shredded lettuce, over and over again, until the tub is full.

• Place the tub in the fridge to fully cool.

• Closer to serving time, take the shredded lettuce out of the tub, remove the layers of paper towels, and move it into serving platters, topping it prettily with rows of sliced green onions, shredded radishes, and pickled carrots. Fill three serving dishes with this pretty mixture, then back into the fridge they go.

Robin and I did this with 10 or 12 heads of iceberg, taking turns between slicing and draining as we each filled the bowls. It probably took an hour to get through it all.

I think this process perfectly captures Chef Lynn’s care and dedication to absolute perfection. Who else would put this much effort into the shredded lettuce?

After Robin and I had finished our shift on Wednesday, we took a breather with Chef Lynn on the couch in the break room, before the next shift came in to do the final prep and get everything over to the gym, where dinner was being served by shift three.

Monthly resource night dinners are usually served at La Plaza’s offices, but the farewell dinner was being served at the Town of Palisade gymnasium, so as to accommodate the large number of people expected in one single, air conditioned room. That posed a few extra logistical challenges, but we had had time to start staging for the next team who would take everything over to the gym.

I asked Lynn how she felt that morning coming in. The sound quality is a little rough here, because we were all a bit exhausted.

Lynn: I felt great coming in this morning. You know, we’re all organized and we’re good and I think we have a spectacular dinner. That’s what I think.

Robin: And it, to me it’s like a summer. It’s a great summer dinner.

Lynn: It’s like a feast.

Robin: It’s like a feast. All the beautiful corn, the watermelon that everything is going to be so fresh. They are going to love it.

Lynn: And my cinnamon whipped cream is going to turn out. It’s gonna be beautiful. This is the execution day. Because you, make it all. It all comes together. So we have three more volunteers coming in. One who is going to be out in the 100 degree heat charring off the corn for our street corn a hundred ears. And then we have two other people that will be keeping this going and sending everything across the street. And we’ll have volunteers who will be running it across the street and carts.

Lisa: And, your husband cooked all the pork yesterday, right.

Robin: Larry was the pork master yesterday.

Lisa: He’s going to bring it all over later.

Robin: When he saw how many pork butts were in Lynn’s car.

Lynn: They were on sale. So I got a couple extra and I pull up and he goes, you only told me 5.

Robin: Why do you have 10? And got them all shredded for us last night. He shredded it and he degreased all the stock, leftover stock.

Lynn: The leftover liquid from it and he soaked it in everything in apple juice. So it. And then I made my first ever green chili sauce, and I put sausage in there and used the stuff that he had leftover from the pork. It’s a team effort. And I think this says something about our town, because if you ask people to volunteer here, they’ll shock you. They’ll just. They’ll show up. And it might not be 10 people, but you didn’t need 10 people. You only needed two. And two people show up.

Robin: Absolutely.

Lisa: Robin, why do you you help?

Robin: Why do I help? It is such a small thing that we can do for the appreciation that we get every time. Every time you eat a peach here, I mean, it is. We are in an amazing place, and I couldn’t be out in the heat like they are all day. I could not do it. And it’s just a one little, little thing that we can do to show how appreciative we are of the work that they do for us.

Lynn: And I think they know it. I got asked the question earlier today. I tend to leave because I’m exhausted after three days, and I just. I’m too spent to be here. And I was asked, don’t you want to see the people appreciate it? And I very much do. And as a chef, when I get a dining room full of people that were chattering away, but they get a plate of food and it goes silent, you just know you hit your mark because, yeah, they’re conversing, but then suddenly they got to get busy eating what you just prepared for them. And they do. And sometimes, a lot of times I do walk out as they’re just as they’re coming and they say here’s the chef. And they cheer me and that’s all. And also see if I know it’s good. I don’t. I don’t need to see it because I already know. And I did it on. I went to that trouble on purpose and meant every single thing.

Robin: And there’s no leftovers. That’s how you know.

Lynn: Oh yeah.

Robin: There will not be leftovers tonight.

Lynn: Just thank you for doing this though, because this was. This is fun. And I’m looking forward to seeing how you splice up make me sound sensible.

Lisa: I really appreciate how you organize everything here…

LM: I was sitting too far from the mic during this recording, so my sound quality further deteriorated here, but I went on to tell Lynn “I really appreciate how you organize everything here. It’s like multi dimensional chess in your head. You kind of have everything thought through and every detail planned out. And I appreciate that you make me feel useful too. Because I think a lot of times when I volunteer places, if they make you feel like they don’t really need you, why would I go back?”

Lynn: Right. Oh, well, that’s a nice compliment. I appreciate you appreciating me. The sense I have is that people like the direction. It’s like, not everybody could do this. But if you do righteous, perfect, like, she was just saying, all this perfect food, you can feel so good about it because you know that I didn’t give them any old thing. I gave them. I showed them how much I care about what they’re eating.

LM: Let me tell you a few things about Chef Lynn. When you walk into a kitchen where she’s in command, whatever kitchen it is, wherever it is, it’s HER kitchen (like any good chef). I first met Lynn shortly after we moved to Palisade. Paul and I hosted a post-Olde Fashioned Christmas parade Bike Palisade group party in the shell of our then-new home. We’d only had possession of the place for a few days, and I thought, what better way to inaugurate it than to host a party? I had to clean it anyway. Might as well make it nice and dirty first!

I didn’t know Lynn yet, but I was told that she’d be dropping off some chili for the party. We didn’t even live at the house at that time, so I rolled over to let her in before the parade. She was already there. She had bags and bags of things. The crock pot with chili – asking me which outlet was a good outlet to plug it in. I had no idea – I didn’t even know which outlets worked yet! And then there were the garnishes: cheese and I think probably onions and some kind of chips and probably some hot sauce. I’m sure there was more. And also bowls, spoons, and napkins. Things we didn’t have there yet. (Also, shout out to Gail Matthiessen for bringing over a few rolls of TP, which we also didn’t have at the house yet!). That warm chili was the perfect thing after a cold December night bike ride, and a great base for the keg of Palisade Brew that Mark Williams brought over.

But back to this kitchen, the La Plaza kitchen. When you’re in the kitchen, Chef Lynn tells you stories and if you’re wise, you realize those stories are lessons. What you take away from it is: don’t ask her where something is if you haven’t put in a good faith effort to find it first. Don’t ask her how to do something if it should be obvious. Remember the steps that she told you. When she corrects you, pay attention. If you drain that first batch of shredded lettuce and pile it up, then go back with the second batch to find that your piles have been scattered about loosely, so as to better dry – understand that and don’t pile it up again. Scatter it loosely.

Lynn’s always observing what you’re doing, how you’re doing it, and how you’re interacting with others. She decides who she wants doing what, when. So much so that it’s an honor to get a text from Chef Lynn asking if you’re available to help with a specific task. You’re not volunteering so much as being selected to volunteer. It’s an honor and if you’re wise, you accept it.

LM: After day two’s prep shift, I went home to eat dinner and ice my foot, then I went over to the gym to see how the night was going. When I arrived, the gym was full of cheering – La Plaza team members Iriana and Anahi were in the front of the room, giving away prizes. A big boom box played in the background between announcements in Spanish of the prize-winning numbers. Empty plates sat stacked on the tables.

A group of volunteers stood behind the almost fully-depleted trays of food, waiting to serve any last-minute arrivers. La Plaza team members Geri and Amanda were at the intake table and Augusto moved through the room, chatting with people and shaking hands.

The younger kids in attendance helped pull prize-winning numbers from a shoebox, in between running around the gym and generally having an awesome time. One of the littlest kids hugged Geri’s legs and wouldn’t let go. She smilingly brushed him off, but I could tell she didn’t really want to.

As the prize-winning numbers were pulled, big cheers went up from the tables. Everyone was smiling and laughing, excited about winning prizes either they or a family member could use. And the prizes ran the gamut. Everything from the last pie that hadn’t been needed that night to shoes, toiletries, curling irons, kitchen appliances, lawn chairs, blankets, jackets, and a spectacular pair of crystal-studded, blue cowboy boots that Anahi showed off throughout the drawing, building up excitement. It was a happy, festive atmosphere.

Towards the end of the evening, I talked with Amanda about the dinner and the prizes.

Amanda: My name is Amanda Perez. I am the community navigator here at La Plaza.

The farewell dinner is just, it’s a great opportunity for us to get together as a community and celebrate our local farm workers. This is a fun event that we get to put on every year, to give a, you know, a nice farewell to these guys, let them know that they’re important and that we love having them here.

So we do a raffle at each one of these farewell dinners. We’ve been collecting items since probably January, I’m sure, at least. Every time we get donations in, we’re like, ooh, that would be good for the raffle. And we just have been collecting a lot over the months. And so we’ve got, we had a pretty good selection of items today. People excited. I mean, they get excited about pretty much any of it, but I know especially, like, especially for those that are going back home here soon, they really love to get athletic shoes. Sometimes we give away like, bikes, pretty much anything. I think they’re having. We had some cowboy boots that they’re a little bit out of style, but they just had the funnest time just seeing those. And so, yeah, I think they had a lot of fun with those too. And I mean, they took them all right away.

We had a count of 120, but that was including our volunteers. But so there’s a little more than that with staff and some other people that came to help out. But, yeah, more than 120 people in the gym tonight.

It’s just a really great opportunity for us to get together one more time before everybody heads back home. Just to let them know that we appreciate them and we love having them around. And they’re an important piece of this community.

LM: So thanks to La Plaza, Chef Lynn, and all the volunteers for putting on the farewell dinner and sending a message of thanks home with this season’s migrant farm workers. As our markets fill up with fresh and delicious produce and every bite of a perfectly ripened peach or plum or melon reminds me of how lucky I am to live here and easily access this food, I can’t forget to join in the thank you to those who help our farmers thrive.

Even though this season is wrapping up, La Plaza’s work doesn’t stop. Soon it will be time to make batches of fundraising tamales, continue planning for future seasons, and continue supporting the immigrants who remain part of our community.

There are so many ways to contribute if you want to help. You can buy tickets to Quemando, a salsa concert at Grande River Vineyards on September 6^th, that is one of La Plaza’s biggest fundraising events of the year. You can donate money to La Plaza, either in general or for a specific cause, like a new commercial stove and oven for the kitchen. You can donate cool things for next year’s farewell dinner giveaway when you’re doing your 2026 spring cleaning.

If you want to help but are unsure how, you can always reach out to La Plaza at (970) 902-2491 or info@laplazapalisade.org or visit their website, https://www.laplazapalisade.org/.

Thanks for listening. With love, from Palisade.

Do you ever wish you had had a chance to try out a career before committing to something that you’ll be doing for the rest of your working life? Well in the Grand Valley, D51 high school students have an opportunity to do just that.

Crystal Green, Career Pathways Coordinator for the Work-Based Learning Program at Palisade High School, explains how this awesome program works and why local businesses should participate.

If you are interested in signing your business up, visit the SchooLinks platform for more: https://tinyurl.com/schoolinksD51

Theme Music: Riverbend by Geoff Roper    

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Transcript:

Welcome to the Postcards From Palisade Podcast. I’m Lisa McNamara. Palisade is most famous for its peaches, but there’s so much more happening in our little town. Join me as I chat with our community members to hear about how they are making Palisade a great place to live and visit.

Today I’m speaking with Crystal Green, Career Pathways Coordinator for the Work-Based Learning Program at Palisade High School. The Work-Based Learning program is a partnership between District 51 schools and local businesses whose goal is to create a strong community and skilled local workforce. The program provides students with hands-on, real-world experience in the different career pathways available in our area.

I learned about this fantastic program at a Palisade Chamber of Commerce Community Over Coffee event, which in my opinion are worth the cost of chamber membership alone. These events gather local business and community leaders to explain what they do and answer questions in a small group setting. They’re an awesome opportunity for members to find out what is happening in the community and get questions answered directly by the source.

Today, Crystal explains what work-based learning is, how students and businesses prepare and participate, and why you should reach out, even if you’re not sure if your business would be a perfect fit. All that and more on today’s Postcard from Palisade.

Lisa: Thank you again so much for coming in to meet with me today.

Crystal: Thanks for having me. I’m Crystal Green. I am the Work Based Learning Coordinator or the Career Pathways Coordinator at Palisade High School.

Lisa: And so I learned about what you do recently at one of the Chamber of Commerce community over coffee events. And I thought it was so cool. And I thought that there’s a pretty good chance that somebody who doesn’t have a kid in high school or didn’t have a kid in high school may not be aware of this program. So that’s why I really wanted to have you in and just learn more about what you do and how the whole thing works. So I would love it if you could just kind of talk through the program. What is it? How long has it been around and how does it work?

Crystal: Well, work based learning has been around in D51 for decades, mostly through our CTE program, which is our career technical exploration. And from there it obviously, students like to go and work in the community. And so like I said, that’s kind of been around for a while. And D51 is really taking a larger step. And so we now have coordinators. So we have a district level coordinator and then we have a coordinator at all four major high schools. And what I do at Palisade High School specifically is I run our Futures Pathways program. And so we help students figure out early in their high school career what they want to do or potentially do. We allow them to get some of those foundational skills and even earn credentials that transfer directly into the workforce and then hopefully end in some kind of a hands on experience, whether it be an internship and apprenticeship or even sometimes higher education. So I kind of oversee all those programs and then help connect the businesses with students so that they can have those opportunities.

Lisa: That’s awesome. I so wish I had something like that when I was in high school. Because it’s a time in your life when everybody is saying, okay, decide what you want to do for the rest of your life! You’re like, well, I don’t know like I’m a teenager. So it’s such a cool thing.

Crystal: Right, right. I hear that a lot, actually. I do. I hear that a lot. I think what’s also really interesting about it is they hear oftentimes the careers that our students, even as freshmen are going to be doing don’t exist yet. And so it allows them to get some of those foundational skills that he can even transfer to some of those jobs that are still upcoming.

Lisa: That’s so cool. So with local businesses here, what kind of businesses are a good fit for the program? Or what kind of businesses do you work with here in Palisade?

Crystal: So really, any business that’s willing to share their expertise with students. We like to grow our own, and so these students are from here, live here, and it would be great if we could pass on some of those knowledge. I’ve been hearing a lot in the trades that we have a large population that are going to be retiring and no one to fill those positions. So the sooner that we can get students interested in that and they can be thinking about that and potentially start filling those roles, it’s really important. But any business that’s really willing to take the time to help a student, and it can be a reciprocal, positive experience. It’s not always just the business giving and giving. These students are very, very capable. And so if you give them the chance, you give them some directive, they have a lot of energy and a lot of creativity that even, you know, we sometimes run out of in our mundane day to day. And so it’s a great opportunity to bring in some energy and some fresh eyes even to your business. And social media has really taken off. You know, we’re doing it now. And, these students have lived it since they were little. And so that’s, I get a lot of requests from businesses wanting students to do that social media or even that technology part of it. So just any business that’s really willing to give some time to our students and give them a chance and show that they are capable is really a good fit.

Lisa: That makes a lot of sense, especially with the trades and everything. I know that there aren’t always traditional pathways into that career field. So that’s interesting. I don’t know if you can name names, but can you talk about any of the businesses that currently participate? And if you can’t then that’s OK too.

Crystal: Oh, sure. I’ve got several. So as you mentioned, the Palisade Chamber of Commerce, they’ve been instrumental in getting this off the ground. They are one of our biggest partners, not only with holding those events and allowing us to speak, where we met, but they do those networking events. They’ve also hosted, I believe, two, if not three. No, they’ve done three. Three interns, that have been really successful. And we’ve both been able to navigate what that looks like from both sides and for the student. So that’s been really nice to have that relationship where we can brainstorm what’s going well and what’s not as well. And then the chamber is in a good position to then support other businesses because they’ve also been through it.

Our Palisade Fire Department runs a full internship where they get students actually certified to become firefighters. They take a lot of time out of their day to run that. And so they’ve been very instrumental in getting our students prepared to be in the fire department or in EMS. Our Palisade Police Department also runs a class at Palisade High School. So the officers come in, a lot of times on their own time and teach our students everything they would learn if they went to the police academy, minus guns, because that’s not safe. And then they’re doing a year two internship where students are going to actually be at the police department and working alongside the police officers. So you might see them at the farmers markets, standing next to the police officer and doing things like that. And then we have three students that are actually going to be going and learning how to do dispatch. So there’s a time between when you graduate until you turn 21 where you can’t go to the police academy. And so we’re trying to keep the kids engaged during that time through different avenues.

Some other businesses in Palisade, Wine Country Inn allowed our students to do a lot of behind the scenes and work some of their festivals. So they’ve been a great partner. And I think there’s going to be even more there to come. The Historical Society had an intern and that was a lot of fun for both parties there. And then the Blue Pig also had an intern. And so a lot of our local Palisade businesses have really supported this program.

Lisa: It’s just such an invaluable experience because again, there’s nothing like actually doing something to find out if you like it or not or if you want to spend your career doing this kind of thing. So that on the job shadowing and working alongside people in that field is so fascinating, that’s such a cool experience for kids to have.

Crystal: You know, I say sometimes to the kids, like, you try your shoes on before you buy it. You try your car before you buy it. Why would you not try your career? I think it’s something like you spend 98,000 hours, something crazy like that, in your job. So why wouldn’t you want to try before you buy or try before you go to school? Dropout rate is real. Changing your major takes time and money and resources. Maybe college isn’t even for you. So these students can kind of try to figure all that out even before they take any of those really big steps.

Lisa: So I think you kind of highlighted some of the success stories there with that list. But is there anything else that you want to talk about that, you know, really resonated with you.

Crystal: There’s a lot of success stories that come out of this. And again, it’s not even just for the students. It’s also good publicity for our businesses, getting their name out there. These students are well connected and so are their parents. And so there’s no better way than word of mouth of saying, like, hey, I’m doing an internship at you the Blue Pig. What’s that? It’s an art place. You should come check it out. They’ve got this cute little coffee shop, so that word of mouth really travels far.

Some of our students have been so successful in some of the work they’ve done, so I’ll go back to the social media, that they had so many clients and so much success that they were able to kind of spin off and run their own business doing social media marketing for businesses, alongside going to school for that. We have another student that did an internship and that turned into a career for them. And so I think that that’s the success stories that we’re looking for is not only are these students being productive members of society and finding what they’re passionate about, but they’re also supporting our local businesses and staying right here.

Lisa: Yeah. Win, win. Also for keeping the community kind of spirit going and keeping, you know, the multiple generations in our community here in Palisade too, is so important for that. So I have the handout here that you handed out at the chamber event. And I just noticed there are so many different ways that businesses can engage with the program. It’s almost like anything you can think of, you can possibly do it. So what’s the best way for a business to figure out what option would work best for them?

Crystal: So like you said, there’s several different ways. If you find that you only have a small amount of time but you do want to help out with students, having a site visit, having students come to your place of business, coming in and being a guest speaker, those are great ways to kind of dip your toes in and see if this is what’s best for you. We’re really hoping to form businesses and relationships for the internships and apprenticeships portion of it.

And if you are interested to know more about that, the best way to contact us is through one of those coordinators. So again we’ve got a district level coordinator. So if you just call the district and ask for the work based learning coordinator, you could find her. And then again there’s one at all the four major high schools. I’m Crystal Green at Palisade High School. And you can just call the school and get connected to us and we can set up a time to meet and kind of talk about what that looks like.

We also just rolled out a software that we’re using. It’s called School Links. And so it’s a really easy way for you to even sign up without having to meet with us. If you just get that information and then you can basically make your own profile. And then if you are willing to do just a job shadow, you can post that on there. If you’re wanting to do more of like an internship, you would post that on there. And from the kids side it looks like an Indeed page. So I was just on it this morning. So from a student perspective I got on and I saw there’s a job shadow and there’s an internship and so I can apply to those. And then the coordinators would step in and help coordinate, like do you want to interview these students? Do you want us to pick them for you? But it’s a really nice streamlined way for you guys for them to see what’s available, for you to show what’s offered. And then all the paperwork is also very easy. It’s all electronically done. And then once you’ve set that up and you’re working with a student outside of that, your time is very minimal. The students will turn in a timesheet and it takes you about probably two minutes to log in, review it and hit approve. So we’re trying to really streamline that.

One thing we heard when we first started doing all this was I would love to do that but I don’t know where to start. And so these coordinators are in place now and this software is in place now to hopefully streamline that. All of the chambers are also aware of this. So if you even don’t even know where to contact someone in the district, the chambers are happy to be that kind of middle person to help you not only make your website or get on there and do your profile but also to connect us you to the work based learning coordinators.

Lisa: I’ll include a link to that School Links, I’ll include that in the episode notes. So that’s really the first place. Or either contact you or check out the School Links and that’s really your starting point.

Crystal: Or the chambers. Yep.

Lisa: Or the chambers. Thanks. Yep. I like that there’s so many different options too. Just it. So it could be as much basically as much time investment as you want. You can put a lot of time into it. You can put a little time. And there’s still something that might work and benefit.

Crystal: Absolutely. And the four schools are working really well together. So you know, whatever you offer will be sent out to the whole district. So it’s kind of nice to know that. So like even if you contacted me when you post that on school links, it does go out to all of the schools. and so you can get a student from any school.

Lisa: Okay. So it doesn’t necessarily have to just be in the town that you’re within. I think maybe we touched on this a little bit already. But what kind of skills are in demand from local businesses?

Crystal: And yeah, I think you a lot of conversation from that community over coffee. It was kind of funny because that’s the question we asked of the participants at the table and it was very basic things that they were looking for: being able to communicate, to answer or make phone calls, to do emails. How to address an envelope was actually one that popped up three different times at three different tables. Isn’t that interesting, because we just don’t do that anymore. And so I really took that to heart. So I teach the college and career prep class also at Palisade, which is mandatory class for sophomores. And I spent all day yesterday figuring out how I can get those skills specifically into that curriculum. So we’re going to have students writing envelopes in our class. We’re going to practice making phone calls and writing emails and doing some of that communication piece.

Lisa: Because, yeah, that’s not part of daily life anymore. You don’t have a pen pal that you write a physical letter to anymore or. Yeah, have to call your friends parents and ask for them to come to the phone and, yeah, wow, that’s fascinating.

Crystal: Even just knocking on the door. Like, people don’t knock on the door and say, hey, can someone so play now? Like, they text, hey, I’m here. So I think that, we’re gonna really spend a lot of time doing that kind of stuff in that class to get them better prepared.

Lisa: So how do you help the students get ready other than basic skills, things like that? I think you do a lot of work with students to get them prepared to participate in this program. You’re not just kind of plucking somebody out of a class and saying, okay, go work at the chamber for a few months.

Crystal: So I think the first step would be kind again, at Palisade, we do that sophomore class, where we do some of those foundational skills and then just being a part of the pathways, the students are in those, again, their CTE classes. So those career technical education classes where they’re learning some of those skills as well. So alongside of coding or carpentry, they’re learning those other business skills, soft skills.

And then as a district, we are working on finding a unified way to train our students, or we’re calling it onboard our students, for these internships specifically. So if you get a student from Central, Junction, Fruita or Palisade, they’ve all had the same kind of training so that they are prepared. That’s in the works. We’ve got talks with CMU and their workforce center. And so we’re going to pull in some of our business partners to kind of help us make this a unified resource for our students. But, yeah, we are not plucking them out of the classroom. They’ve had some training and some experience.

And again, I just, I like to mention this over and over again, like, a lot of our students are credentialed. Like they had to sit and pass the same test that the other adults do. So a lot of times that brings their maturity levels up because it becomes serious and real for them, when they’re holding that card that says, I can go work on a construction site. And so I think sometimes, you find that they’re ready to go just from that.

There are some growing pains, because some of them have never had a job. So just know if you do an internship, we are gonna preparing the best we can, but you may still have to do a few things to kind of get them up to par. But I think that that is what you should be willing to do if you are taking an intern, is to know that you’re gonna have some of those growing pains, but hopefully they adapt quickly.

Lisa: Absolutely. Yeah. With any internship, it’s educational for the student as well. And, yeah, that’s kind of part of the experience.

Crystal: Some things that have kind of stood in our way from having some more business partners is we have a lot of individuals who love to take the CMU students, which CMU is a great resource and I love that that resource is there, and our pathways lead to that. However, I want to just emphasize that our high school students become those CMU students and our high school students have, this is their hometown. So sometimes the CMU students come and they don’t live here, and they’re going to take your resources and go, and that’s okay. But if we want to really work on providing our economy with help, I would say take a chance on some of these high school students. You would be amazed at what they’re able to do if you give them a little bit of space and a little bit of competence and they’re able to do great, great things.

And I would just challenge you to think about what is that 10th most important project on your list that you just don’t have time to get to and allow these high school students to do it. A lot of places will say, well, I can’t have a high school student in there because we have private information. Think mortgages, things like that. Banks. And true, students can’t sit in on those things. However, you still throw events. You still have other employees to take care of. Those are projects that the students could definitely still be immersed in the bank. They’re not sitting at the table with those private conversations, but they’re still hearing and seeing and having to dress up and learning how to shake hands. There’s so many things they can learn from still helping you throw an employee celebration or a public event. So think about those projects that you have sitting on your table that someone that is 17, 18 years old could probably tackle, and you might find that you really like the results.

Lisa: That is an excellent point. So long have you been in this role?

Crystal: So I moved here three years ago in July, so just passed our anniversary of moving here. And so I was originally not actually going to go back into teaching. And I moved in across the street from my principal’s family. And so he introduced himself as a principal and I said, well, I’m a teacher. And he said, you want a job? And I was like, sure. So I originally started in the Spanish classroom. And I don’t speak Spanish, but we had a student teacher that needed a certified teacher in the classroom. So I was there to help her with the classroom management and lesson planning, but she was actually doing the teaching in the Spanish. So no worries if you’ve ever had me in your Spanish class. I was not in charge of that part.

And I actually ran a program back in St. Louis through the center for Advanced Professional Studies, and it was a healthcare program. So I’m a science teacher actually by trade. And that healthcare program was very similar to what we’re trying to do here. I got students for half a day and they were just completely immersed in everything healthcare. And so when principal Bollinger saw that I had that on my resume, they were prepared to do what I’m doing and start the pathways, but they actually were planning on doing it a few years out. But they’re like, hey, you’re here. Let’s do it. And so we jumped in that January. I started finding internships. That first year I think we had 27 interns. And then the following year, we really started building the pathways that lead to those internships. So that was a lot of last year was a lot of building that and getting students through and figuring out what our processes are and meeting new people and gathering the resources. And this year’s going to be a lot of the same. Just kind of making sure that we’ve got solid foundations for everybody involved. And then starting to expand, hoping in the future that we can do something in that kind of tech IT creative field and also agriculture. So would you believe it or not, at Palisade High School we don’t have an agriculture program.

Lisa: No.

Crystal: So I’m in the works of trying to build or get a greenhouse on campus that goes along with our fish hatchery. So, thinking hydroponics and use the wastewater from the fish to do the hydroponics and working with some different places on what we would do with what we grow and how we could be resourceful in that. And so that’s my project for this year as well. So that’s kind of how I got started.

Lisa: I love that. That is such a cool tie to the community. That you’re right is so weird that that is missing right now. So I wonder if back in the day too they kind of, the students would get that through working more in the fields and now that that doesn’t really happen anymore you miss that connection or that pathway.

Crystal: Yeah. I think it would be great to tie it into our culinary and our hospitality pathway as well. So that field to fork or field to plate concept we could use some of those. The food that we grow to then they can use it in their plates and it would be kind of nice.

Lisa: So you didn’t move here intending to get into this at all. It was just sort of a happy accident. That’s really funny. What actually brought you here were or you just always wanted to come back to Palisade.

Crystal: No, actually we didn’t even know what Palisade was and we definitely didn’t even know what Grand Junction was. So we moved here for my husband’s job. He got transferred here to come manage his work. And honestly it’s funny because at the time, we have three little boys, so we were trying to find a four bedroom house so they all had their own rooms and the house that we purchased was really the only four bedroom house on the market at the time. And we didn’t really have a lot of time to shop around. They were wanting to get us out here pretty quickly, and had no idea that moving to Palisade was a thing. And so when we started telling people, well we bought a house in Palisade they were like, oh! And we’re like, what do you mean, oh? Like what’s oh? And now that we live here we definitely get it. But it was really funny because we didn’t even really know what we were moving into.

Lisa: That’s really cute. So getting into a new school year, is there anything you traditionally do to prepare for the year? It’s starting next week, right?

Crystal: It is starting next week, yes.

Lisa: Yeah. So how do you usually prepare? Is there anything you do differently this year than other years?

Crystal: Yeah, so I actually have spent yesterday and today working. And I would say step one is organizing because I juggle a lot of different tasks. You can imagine running these pathways, teaching a class, getting the internships set up, supervising those. So really just getting myself super organized and starting to get some processes in place so that I don’t drop the ball anywhere. And this year, because we’ve had the students kind of in the pathways for two and a half years, they’re ready for internships. So this year’s going to be a lot of networking and connecting students interest to businesses that are ready to host them.

And so this year was a lot of, let’s figure out who do I need to talk to on day one so that we can start getting them in these meaningful internships and get them this experience. So I would say this year’s been a little bit more on like, we got to hit day one, we got to hit it running. So really excited about that. Getting our fire academy up and running. So year two, this is going to be the first time, I think ever that they’ve had a year two for the fire academy. So we’re really excited about that. We have one student doing that and then our police academy, last year was the first year teaching, and then this will be the first year for that internship as well as the dispatch. And so really just making sure that our business partners are taken care of because this is a lot of unknowns for everyone, students, teachers, and the business partners involved. So just really trying to make sure that I’m out there and supporting them is probably my big focus. So that these are, the longevity is there. We’re keeping these relationships positive.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That’s a lot.

Crystal: It is, but I love it. I love it. I can teach in a biology classroom and I can be, you know, affect some kids lives by the information I give. What I get to do now is transformative. And I can have kids you know, “I loved this, this is my career. I’m gonna continue,” “I got a job,” to, “I hated that. And I’m so glad I didn’t go to school.” That’s a success story in itself. So what I get to do is really powerful and enjoyable. And I was just telling, I’m very excited to say I’ve got an assistant this year to help with some of those tasks. And that’s who I was just meeting with. And I told her, I was like, we get to have really fun days. And she’s like, okay, what do you mean? I was like, the police academy last year learned how to clear buildings, like, if there was a bad guy hidden in there. So they got these little fake blue guns, and they got to learn how to, like, just like you see in the movies, like, clear. How to go in and clear a room. And I was like, I got to sit there and watch that instead of sitting at a desk. Right? So it was, like, so fun. So we get to do a lot of fun things. Our construction day is always really fun. So if you’re wanting to partner in any way, shape, or form, these are the fun experiences that you could potentially have with kids.

Lisa: That’s so exciting. A lot more fun than just just grading papers.

Crystal: Yes.

Lisa: So now that we’ve been here for three years, have you found your favorite things to do in the community? Favorite parts about Palisade?

Crystal: I would have to say the small town feel is what we love about it. We came from just outside of St. Louis, so the population of our town was as much as the whole valley here. So you can imagine when people say there’s traffic here, we kind of giggle at them. So we really love the small town feel. My children right now are at the pool. I love that it’s a small pool and they’re there with friends. Everyone we’ve met here has been super nice and welcoming. My children have great relationships with their teachers and their coaches and their friends and even their friends’ parents. And so we were really able to, I don’t know, just integrate really easily. And as a mom, that was my biggest fear for my boys especially my oldest one was starting middle school, and now he’s starting high school.

And so I would just say the small town feel and how everyone’s just been really welcoming. I love the festivals and the festivities. And of course, the peaches. Wasn’t even a peach fan until I moved here. And now I have a peach tree in my backyard, which I’m watching the birds eat all of my peaches, but it’s okay. But, yeah, I would just say that we love, I think for our family, we really love the Christmas festivities. So my children, because they go to Taylor, have sang for the tree lighting and then just the cute little parade and we really enjoy that. And I have my family coming in for Peach Fest. So just all the festivals and the people we’ve met and yeah, I would say that’s probably the biggest.

Lisa: I love the Peach Fest, the ice cream social downtown with, like, the street dancing and everything. I just think that is the cutest event ever. And the tug o’ war.

Crystal: It is cute. It is a lot of fun. And we love. Yeah, we love all the outdoor things. So I have three little boys and a lab, and so we swim and hike. And my husband and I love to go camping. And the Mesa’s amazing. And, you know, we live right on the Colorado river, so we try to take advantage of that as much as we can when we’re not traveling for our travel sports.

Lisa: Right, of course. So. So would you say on the whole, you’re happy you moved here? Or? That was a gimme.

Crystal: Yes, we love it here. We actually just asked our boys, like, would you ever, you know, do you want to go back? And, sorry, mom and dad, but they said no. So. No, they’re. They’re loving it here, too. And they love their friend group and schools, and they’re excited for this year.

Lisa: That’s so good to hear. Anything else you want to add or share?

Crystal: I think I would just say, if you’re a business on the fence, I would say give me a call and let’s talk. And even more importantly, I’ll let you talk to some students and you can kind of hear the impact that it can have. And if you have any concerns, I would also say, I’ve mentioned this a couple times, the chambers are really supportive of this. And they also have supports in place, too, for you. I know that they run different workshops on how to host an intern. I think that’s through Fruita Chamber. And I know Palisade and Fruita are sisters. And so there’s a lot of resources out there.

There’s also resources on how to pay your interns that doesn’t necessarily have to come out of your income stream. And so the workforce center works with us on that. And if you’re interested in an apprenticeship, which is a little bit more in depth than an internship, there is tax credits right now in the state of Colorado. So there are other financial benefits to having students come in. So just be brave, make the call. Let’s see how it works. And there’s nothing to say that if you don’t like what you hear, that’s okay. Maybe you can just be a guest speaker. And if you love what you hear, then let’s move forward.

I just really want to a take a moment to give a shout out to any businesses or individuals that have taken time to have students. It can be challenging. It’s a learning experience. It’s something that can be scary. You’re definitely. We take it to heart that this is your business and your livelihood. And so I just want to say thank you to any businesses that have already interacted or even just made a connection, even if you didn’t have a student come into your business. I do have some advocates out there that have been just working really hard to make connections for me. Hey, this know you do this business, this person is a great person to contact. We think this could be a good relationship. That’s kind of how we got into Wine Country Inn. And so I just want to say thank you to anyone that’s been a connector or have hosted a student or come in and spoke to our students. I’m definitely not doing this alone. And it’s been a community effort and definitely a village. And I just appreciate everyone who’s been a part of it.

Lisa: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me and hopefully spread the message to others in the community who maybe haven’t come across this program before and inspire them to reach out and get involved. So I appreciate everything that you do too.

Crystal: Thank you.

Lisa: Really, it’s such a cool job and it’s awesome just to see the excitement you have for it. And I’m sure you bring that to the students and to everybody you work with too. So thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it, Crystal.

Crystal: Thanks for having me and thanks to everyone for listening.

Lisa: After we stopped recording, I was joking with Crystal about how I lack the skills to make video podcasts, and she said, ‘well, maybe you should get a D51 intern to help you with that!’ So there you have it, there truly is an opportunity for everyone! Maybe you’ll see video Postcards from Palisade in a future season…

If you think your business might be a good fit for this program, visit the SchooLinks platform to sign up and learn more: https://tinyurl.com/schoolinksD51 or call PHS at 970-254-4800 or call your local chamber of commerce.

The podcast’s theme music is Riverbend by Geoff Roper.

Thanks for listening. With love, from Palisade.

Ride along with Corinna Scott and me as we chat about our new business, Peachy Pedicab, the nerdy things we geek out about, the challenging and fun parts of starting our own business, local adventures, Palisade history, travel hacks, and lots more.

Theme Music: Riverbend by Geoff Roper  

 

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Transcript:

Welcome to the Postcards From Palisade Podcast. I’m Lisa McNamara. Palisade is most famous for its peaches, but there’s so much more happening in our little town. Join me as I chat with our community members to hear about how they are making Palisade a great place to live and visit.

Today I’m joined by my friend and business partner, Corinna Scott. Corinna and I started Peachy Pedicab, a pedicab tour company, in March of this year, after both going through what could probably be described as our own independent midlife crises. Peachy Pedicab offers all kinds of tours – wine, farm, and history, along with pedicab shuttles and rides. Corinna is the main driver, and I take care of more of the behind-the-scenes, business type stuff.

Corinna and I drove to Salt Lake City and back in a day to pick up our first pedicab earlier this year. Listening back to our conversation, I was struck by how it basically could have been recorded from the backseat on that drive.

So come ride along with us as we quiz each other about the nerdy things we geek out over, the challenging and fun parts of starting our own business, our life-changing float through the Gates of Lodore, local adventures, Palisade history, travel hacks, and lots more, on today’s Postcard from Palisade.

Lisa: Corinna Scott.

Corinna: Lisa McNamara.

Lisa: Today we’re talking about something that we both should know a lot about because it’s our new business.

Corinna: Yes. Peachy Pedicab. Here we are.

Lisa: Tell me about why you wanted to start a pedicab business.

Corinna: it really combines like all the things I love the most. Palisade, riding a bike, talking. Most specifically talking about, like telling people about this town. I love this town. I always have. So it’s just super fun. And you know, it’s wine tours so people are enjoying themselves and it’s not, you know. I feel like I understand and recognize that my pedicab experience is very different than most. A lot of other pedicab drivers. Right. Like, most people are. Pedicabs are really popular in big cities. And I rode a pedicab 20 years ago. Probably more than that actually, at this point. Yikes. And, you know, I think I paid 20 bucks all that time ago to go three blocks in New York and like, it was, you know, I wasn’t scared, but I’m pretty sure if few of the other passengers were. But, you know, I’ve always been. Not that it’s a daredevily thing, but I, you know, in New York City, it was definitely way more daredevily than it is out on these peachy streets.

Lisa: Yeah, no, it’s a totally different scene. Like in New York, it’s, maybe a novelty or a weird way to get three blocks away and spend a hundred bucks. And here in Palisade, it’s a great way to spend the whole day exploring our town.

Corinna: Yeah. For about 100 bucks.

Lisa: For about hundred bucks hours.

Corinna: Hours. You know the cost ratio, I think we got them beat there. But yeah, so it’s just super fun. You know. I think most people are aware that I rode for another company for, you know, several years and I just loved it. And I am gonna be 45 years old in a few weeks, like it was time to. You know, I’ve always, had a real corporate job. You know, my background is real super corporate-y. I worked for banks when I was like 16. And it, you know, it just. I love this. So if I’m gonna do something that I love, you know, if, if I just always. My parents are both small business owners, so I think it’s really in my blood. But I was just always so scared because I didn’t have the safety net of that corporate structure. And it, to be fair, is a little like, unnerving to not have such a structured day, so to speak. Like on the days that I don’t have tours or, you know, it’s not busy or whatever. But, I just. I gotta do it. I have to believe in myself. You know, I feel like I’ve always prided myself on doing a good job at whatever it is that I’m doing. So, like, if it’s what I love and I’m working for me, then it, you know, it’s a whole other level. So, yeah, I’m excited. You know, I get asked a lot what I’m gonna do in the off-season. We haven’t gotten that far yet. Right. You know, we’ll work on that when we get there. I got some ideas. I’ll be fine. But, yeah, I just love it.

Lisa: Good. Cool.

Corinna: Edit so much of that out.

Lisa: I don’t think so. No, I don’t think that. We’ll see. Well, I mean, and I got a year on you, but I’m almost 44, and I felt the same way. I was like, always working in that corporate structure, working a lot of time for banks and corporate real estate and all this stuff. And I’m just like, I’m really good at it, but I do not care about it. And at a certain point in your life, it’s like, wait, why am I spending all my time, like, okay, money is nice, but why am I spending all my time doing something that I hate every day? I had quit my job with the idea of starting my own business. And what I was thinking I was going to do, I just couldn’t get excited about. So when you were thinking about starting and then I was like, wait a second. I think we could work really well together. Cause I think we have a really good, like, complimentary skill set and personalities.

Corinna: I would have never done this without you, truly.

Lisa: Well, same.

Corinna: I mean, but I would have never. I know what I’m not good at. You know, like, I know what I’m capable of being good at, but what really, just sometimes I’m just not. And you’re so good at that stuff. And, you know, and I know you just have such a good base background. Like I get so many compliments on our logo, and you literally. I was like, I want a wheel and a peach, and I want a flower on the peach there has to be a blossom. And you just took it and made, like, the cutest little thing and we get so many compliments.

Lisa: It was pretty literal. It was a pretty literal interpretation. It’s literally a peach with a flower and a wheel.

Corinna: You still, like, made. You know, you don’t give yourself enough credit. Cause I know you just say, it is. But you were like, okay, here’s seven options. Do you want? And within a week, if that. Four days.

Lisa: I’m having a good time.

Corinna: I still am. You know, like, obviously we’ve learned a lot about maintenance and stuff. And, I’m. You know, I have always tried to approach. Everything is very much a. You know, just take it as a lesson. Right. No losses only lessons.

Lisa: What were you most scared about coming into it?

Corinna: I just the unknown. And it still is a little bit of that. Right. You know, and now we’re at a point where we’re growing, which is great. So we have to, like, you know, the are we gonna do option? We have option A and we have option B. And I feel like I’m constant. Like, I’m at the eye doctor, and I’m like, a B. Oh, no. B looks better. Oh, no, wait, let me see A again. I don’t know. You know, so, like, it just a little bit of the unknown.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. That is hard figuring out. That’s definitely something. Well, I was worried about hurting our friendship, and that was my biggest fear. But now that we’re kind of into it and I think things are going well, I also agree is like, how do you grow in a sustainable way that keeps, it keeps you healthy and happy, and also it keeps the quality of what we do good. It keeps, like, you know, it’s really hard to say, like, because everybody’s like, grow, grow, why aren’t you doing more? Why aren’t you bigger already? Why don’t you have people working for you?

Corinna: Right. Yeah.

Lisa: I’m like, well, I don’t want to mess this up.

Corinna: Yeah. And I don’t. Right. And I’m, I’m a dreamer, man. I always have. You know, my dad, like, teases me. I live everything on a wing and a prayer, which I don’t know that that’s necessarily great, but, like, you know, I fell in love with this place, and I wanted to move here, and I made it happen. And so, like, I know in my core, if I, like, dig down deep enough, I can always get it done if I need to. And I. You know, I was worried about our friendship, too, but, like, I think once we got past the initial, like, how are we gonna structure it? Like, everything feels, you know, not to whatever, but like it just feels like we’ve gotten the business side of it very black and white, so there isn’t much confusion, not confusion, but, you know, I don’t know, I feel like we’ve taken out a lot of the areas that there could be tension, you know, so I’m excited.

Lisa: Same.

Corinna: What do you think a common misconception of pedicabs is?

Lisa: Oh, good one. I think it’s that, well, number one, it’s people who have been to New York and seen them and they’re just like, it’s really expensive. The people who drive them are, let me think of a polite word.

Corinna: Maniacal?

Lisa: Misfits?

Corinna: Feral?

Lisa: Maniacal misfits. Which I mean you are a little bit.

Corinna: I. I am, I call myself that, I tease all the time, that my mom’s like you were raised like you were feral.

Lisa: But maybe just a little shady. And I think that. I really do think because most of the time that you see a pedicab, it is in a place like New York and it’s kind of hustling. They’re kind of hustling you a little bit.

Corinna: No, absolutely. Yeah. No. So 100%. Yeah. The days where it’s just, you know, like festival times and you’re riding around just like, hey, what are you doing? Hey? You want get on the cab, I’ll give you a ride, you know. But even, even with that, like it’s very different than trying to get somebody who’s just walking down the street who, you know, probably isn’t really going that far and is used to walking, you know, or whatever, you know, I guess it is very touristy for New York. And I say New York only because that’s where I’ve ridden. But, you know, yeah, like we’ve met some really cool people that are from all over the place and maybe they ride in a big city, Denver or New Orleans. Like that’s where they’re based out of. But then they do a lot of like festivals and that’s, you know, like the festival scene is where, you know, it really is where a lot of pedicabs, you know, pedicabbers, like pedicab companies, I guess, make the bulk of their money. Most people aren’t as like locked into one location as we are.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. And when you say festivals, you mean like the big ones. I mean like, like Coachella and Bonaroo.

Corinna: Yep.

Lisa: Well. And I feel like that’s too why I, when I tell people about it or when we talk about it online or we kind of advertise it, I call it a pedicab tour company. Because I think the tour part is what you bring to it that’s different. And so you’re bringing like that kind of guided trip visit knowledge to the, to the whole experience. So it’s really not, it’s not just about transportation. That’s not where we bring the most value to people. It’s like the tour part of it. Tour guide.

Corinna: Yeah, no, I would agree with that. Because I’ve had people where I show up and they booked a wine tour or they booked a ride to dinner and you know, I pull up and I’m like hey. And they’re like oh, we had no idea it was like a rickshaw bike. And I’m like oh, well hop aboard, here we go. And I mean they loved it, it was fine. I think the term pedicab, you know, I don’t know because I always knew what it was, right? Like because the first time I ever saw it, I visually had a connection. Like it never occurred to me that it’s such a term. But I’ve had people, I always have to say rickshaw. If I say rickshaw a lot of times then they’ll understand what I’m. What I’m talking about. I just wondered if, if you got the same thing I did. Because that day when I pulled up there, I was like. It was funny. It was a moment. They were a cute couple.

Lisa: No, definitely in telling all my family’s in upstate New York. So like their experience is like going to the city, going shopping, so telling them what we’re doing, they’re like oh, okay, okay. All right.

Corinna: So what are you doing? Are you riding a bike? Let me get Lisa on a bike one of these days. But that is not.

Lisa: I don’t know about that one.

Corinna: I mean. Well, you know, just a little loop around the block. So then you can say you did it. And when somebody says, oh, do you ride the bike? You can be like, I did. I have.

Lisa: I did.

Corinna: I have.

Lisa: Once.

Corinna: Once or twice? So, upstate New York, what was your first job?

Lisa: My first job? Oh, if you don’t count babysitting.

Corinna: Yes. Let’s not count babysitting. I agree that that’s most of our first jobs.

Lisa: Yeah.

Corinna: How many of the babysitter club books did you read?

Lisa: Oh, like all of them.

Corinna: Okay.

Lisa: I loved them. And you know what? I always did. So even this is when I started babysitting when I was 12. This is a side note.

Corinna: I love it.

Lisa: you know me, I was always like, why can’t I be as good as they are?

Corinna: They bring board games and they have like a whole. But I also. So you grew up in a small town. I grew up in a small town. Like, I didn’t grow up in a neighborhood. Like, I luckily actually the kids that lived across the street who are now full-fledged adults. And it’s so weird to think that I babysat them. Those ones actually I didn’t even watch that much, but I had like a brother, sister. They were friends of my parents, but it was like far away. These girls live like in like suburbia where they were like, I’m gonna ride my bike over to Billy’s house.

Lisa: No, like, I lived in, grew up in the middle of the woods in a log cabin. And yeah, it would always be like driving.

Corinna: Yeah.

Lisa: But. Or just doing like babysitting for the PTO at the school. And all the people came to PTO meetings would be. All their kids would be dumped in a room and I would.

Corinna: Oh my goodness.

Lisa: Like when I was 12.

Corinna: Oh, yeah, that’s a lot.

Lisa: And so that’s something about why I didn’t want to have kids. But anyway, my first actual job.

Corinna: Yes.

Lisa: Well, I think I was at the grocery store, but now I’m kind of like doubting myself. But I was a cashier at our local grocery store, which was like a half an hour away from our house still. And I loved it. It was so much fun because I loved everything about it, especially loved ringing up coupons and I loved bagging groceries.

Corinna: Lisa, that’s so fun. I don’t know that we’ve ever talked about.

Lisa: I don’t think we have.

Corinna: I mean, I worked on a babysitting and I worked on a farm. But like my first, like, other than the farm, was at a grocery store. Was at Acme. And I also, like. I don’t know that I loved the coupons. I liked the knowing the codes. You know, I’m such a nerdy girl.

Lisa: Oh yes, like the vegetable codes? The fruit codes?

Corinna: Like, I still now, when I don’t have to look like, if I can remember that green peppers is 4065. I, like, give myself a little high five. Bananas is the one I’ll never.

Lisa: 4011. I’ll never forget that one. That one’s always in there. And I got the pepper, but I think I forgot all the other ones so far.

Corinna: Yeah, those are pretty much because. Well now they all have the bar codes. I also used to remember people’s phone numbers. And I think I would be in so much trouble right now if I had to let. I mean, other than my own number. I don’t know. I know like, my parents and they got. They just got rid of our, like, our, the landline a few years ago. I was devastated. I was like, I don’t have nine, three two, tofu anymore. What? I have to remember all your numbers?

Lisa: That’s funny. yeah. So your first job was also at a grocery store?

Corinna: It also was at a grocery store. I was gonna say, like, what did you, like, learn from that other than, like, couponing is, can be prolific and profitable.

Lisa: Yeah. Just good math skills, I think. Honestly. Math skills. And also social interaction skills.

Corinna: Yeah.

Lisa: Because I don’t necessarily think I had that. And I was. It’s like being forced to interact with adults. And a lot of them. I mean, some of them were a little bit, uh, uh, I don’t know how to say this right. There would be some characters. And learning how to politely deal with people was a huge thing that I took away from that. And also fitting things into bags.

Corinna: Yes.

Lisa: Not putting all the tin cans in one bag.

Corinna: Yes. It’s funny. I was gonna ask you one of your travel hacks, because I know that you are an incredible. Like, you know, we’ve talked about this. Like, I tell my tour groups, I don’t know if that Lisa realizes how much I talk about her to my people. Like, as soon as I, like, identify the planner of the group, I’m like, you are my Lisa, and everybody needs a Lisa.

Lisa: No, I mean, that’s just like, something from traveling so much for work. Well, and also we spent all that time living out of our vehicle for two and a half years. So for me it’s always like, what is the least amount of things you can get away with?

Corinna: Yes.

Lisa: And what’s the lightest you can travel? That’s when I feel the best, is when I have all the essentials and nothing extra.

Corinna: Do you think that you could in a, let’s say 30 liter bag? Right. That’s a pretty standard size. Well, let’s just say a standard carry on suitcase.

Lisa: Okay.

Corinna: Like carry on size. Not. Not checked bag size, carry on size. Do you think you could live out of that bag for…

Lisa: A week. Sorry.

Corinna: You think it could just be a week? I. Is that how long it is? I was gonna ask you if you thought you could live out of it for a full season.

Lisa: I mean, if I had access to a laundromat. Yes.

Corinna: Yeah. No, no. Right.

Lisa: But I know I can do a week actually, because that’s what, what I do, is I take that size bag and then I do like a backpack, like a personal item. And so I know I can do that in a week without repeating any clothes.

Corinna: Okay, not bad, not bad. How about hotel travel hacks? You’ve stayed in a lot of hotels.

Lisa: Oh, my gosh.

Corinna: Is there anything like you always pack for, like, if you’re going to the hotel other than just like.

Lisa: No. I usually honestly mess up hotel things because I swear I either don’t pack shampoo and they don’t have it, or I don’t pack conditioner, they don’t have it. Or I’ll pack one and they will have the other. Or they’ll have it in the shower and it’ll be broken and I will forget to test it until the morning when I’m already wet in the shower. So I feel like I actually kind of mess up hotel things.

Corinna: So only outdoorsy. Outdoorsy stuff you know every time.

Lisa: Yeah I’m good. With that.

Corinna: Perfect.

Lisa: I mean, I know exactly all the things to bring but like hotels, I just, I expect to have like a baseline level of stuff there and then it isn’t. The best hotel travel hack I ever learned from somebody else, though is, you know when you have the curtains and they don’t quite meet in the middle?

Corinna: Yes.

Lisa: And you get that stupid beam of light and it always is shining right in your eyeball. So you can take one of those hangers that has the two pinchers on the end.

Corinna: Oh, and fold it over. Yeah, I know what you’re talking about.

Lisa: Take the pinchers and pinch. Pinch the two curtains together and, like, close it up.

Corinna: Smart.

Lisa: So that was, like, one of those things that I learned, pretty early on. And, like, that made such a big difference because I don’t know what it is, but that light’s always in your eyeball.

Corinna: And it’s always right on your face. Yes, it is. Right here, directly across. Not here or here. Right here.

Lisa: And then I also. So here’s the other weird one is, you’ll see my light sensitivity. Another one of my old coworkers, you know, I’d be complaining about, like, the light that comes in under the door from the hallway. She’s like, oh, just take an extra towel or take your foot towel and roll it up and jam it in the crack. And she’s like, and bonus, if there’s a fire that patches one of the smoke entry points. I’m like, wow. Okay. So those are two of the things I actually always do in a hotel.

Corinna: I like it. See, I knew you would have something that I hadn’t thought of. I had seen the light thing. Actually, I think my mom used a binder clip on it one time.

Lisa: Yes. That works too.

Corinna: Yeah. but I like the towel thing. That’s also probably good for, like. I mean, I. I don’t know, especially as a woman, like, when traveling alone, safety is always the thing. And I know that they make a bunch of those little random things. You can, like, whatever. But I don’t travel enough for that to, like, have ever been, so. But, you know, you have a thing jammed under the door, and somebody tries to open it, it’s gonna take them a second longer.

Lisa: Yeah. That also brings up another weird thing that I do. I don’t think about it. These weird things I do because I haven’t traveled for work for a little while, which is a great, wonderful thing. Is because of that, I also. I thought about getting one of those lock things that locks when you’re inside. But then, like, I feel like there are ways around that too. So I always. I put two hangers on the doorknob. Because my thinking is if somebody turns the doorknob, especially if it’s one of those lever ones, they’ll fall on the floor and wake me up. Right. The two hangers will. And they’ll scare the person away.

Corinna: Yeah. Clearly, the hangers are gonna terrify them.

Lisa: So that’s my alarm.

Corinna: Yes. I like it. I like It, I mean, I would hope that the like chain, you know. Yeah, that’s funny.

Lisa: Okay. All right, we’re getting off on such a tangent here. These are the weird, like this is the overthinking that has always made me a really good project manager, if I may say so.

Corinna: Yes. No, you have handled this project beautifully. Me? A work in progress.

Lisa: No, stop it.

Corinna: And then who would you say or like personal or even public persona had the most influence on like your work ethic or mindset?

Lisa: Oh.

Corinna: I just say who?

Lisa: Oh that’s like a stumper. Hm. I don’t know, Corinna.

Corinna: That’s okay.

Lisa: I have probably, like teachers and think like teachers. Just the ones who really had their shit together. But if I think about like I, you know, growing up in a really small town, you don’t have a lot of people who are your direct role models. And I mean, you could say your parents and that’s obvious. But outside of your family. Yeah, I mean there just aren’t that many. Like if I think about the number of people who I came into contact with, my parents were both self employed and you know, so they didn’t necessarily have like customers and things like that. So, who are you really interacting with?

Corinna: I would think though that’s probably where you get. My parents also self-employed for the most part, my dad was in the union for years, but he always had, you know, he’s always been a musician on the side and does studio, so a business there. But I, I think that probably drives your work. Like I’ve always worked, right. And I’ve always, you know, I’ve always found a lot of value in being a hard worker because when you’re a parent, you know, maybe that’s where it comes from. Like I know there was a lady that I worked for at my very first job at that grocery store. She was mean, she was so tough. But if you did your job right, she didn’t have anything to say. And that’s like, I just remember, like, just do your job, you know, like, like I’m not intimidated by too many people. But you know as a 14 year old, 15 year old girl that was a whole different story and man Judy was rough. But I did my job and she never had you know she. I never had any issues. I left there and went to a bank like as soon as I could drive over the state line, you know 30 minutes away to the home of banking in Delaware. But yeah, you know, I worked for her for a couple years and I arguably like have adopted a little bit of that. But like I am tough. Like I’ve managed people and I expect you know, like if I know what you can do. I was never I hope as mean as like she could just be like just mean. But I think it was also a different time where you could just make nasty comments to people. Stupid, just mean, what is very much bullying comments that would not be acceptable in 2025 but in 1994 it was a whole different world.

Lisa: That’s how they whipped us into shape.

Corinna: That’s right.

Lisa: This is the first time I didn’t put together a question list ever.

Corinna: See, I was so nervous. I wouldn’t like I would just be here like oh why did you decide to do this?

Lisa: Well, that’s how I feel right now. Because that was my first question.

Corinna: Well, I mean. Right, but that was a good first question.

Lisa: Well, let me ask you one.

Corinna: Okay.

Lisa: So I’m curious what you thought about me the first time we met. I believe it was the third week that I was even living here and we went to a bike ride and I think it was the second bike ride that I went to. I don’t remember if I saw you or met you in the first one, but on the second one you pulled up alongside me when we were biking in front of like the storage units. I remember exactly where we were.

Corinna: I do too.

Lisa: And you were like, hey, have you ever done the Kokopelli Trail? And I’m like uh, no. What’s your name? And I just like. I love that you. And this is one of the things I like so much about meeting people here. People don’t usually start with what do you do? You know, which is one of the questions where I’m like, when people ask me first, what do I do? I immediately like shrink up. Or before when I didn’t like what I was doing.

Corinna: Right.

Lisa: You know, I don’t want to talk about that. I kind of like would pull in and just kind of start on a negative.

Corinna: Because that’s not how you identify.

Lisa: Exactly. That’s not how identify. It’s like, that’s how I make money. Like this is how I make a living. But it is not necessarily like the first thing I want to talk about with somebody. So. So many people here start with, what do you do for fun? Or what did you do this weekend? Or what trips do you have coming up?

Corinna: Have you been on the river?

Lisa: Exactly. So that was kind of my first intro to like how do people in Palisade welcome other people? And it’s like, hey, have you gone on this crazy adventure that’s like a five day unsupported mountain bike ride?

Corinna: No, we got Paully Walnuts. He’ll support us.

Lisa: I. I’m like, no, but I’m really impressed that you think I could do that.

Corinna: Absolutely. Yeah. For sure. I remember it too. And I’m pretty sure, it’s funny because I think I have been talking to Paul. Like I like, like I might have pulled up next to you. But I, you know, like, in the way that we were riding, I feel like I was like, pointing like, some random history thing out to Paul. Right.

Lisa: As you do.

Corinna: Probably, as I do, as I am wont to do. And then I probably because I had just, you know, I’m sure I had. I think about the Kokopelli Trail all of the time. I thought about it this morning. I, still want to do it. I still think we can do this I don’t think that we have to worry about doing it unsupported. Yeah, that’s.

Corinna: We’ll talk about this later.

Lisa: Okay.

Corinna: We’re doing the Kokopelli Trail, to be updated, but we can do it. Anyway. But I do remember that it was on that. That stretch of road. So fast forward, what. So then three or four rides later, it’s Halloween ride and Paul is a hot dog. And. And you were like, he’s always hot dog. It’s just like his thing. He’s always a hot dog. And like, like, it was the most normal thing in the world. Like, I mean, you said it very, like, cheeky, you know, and it’s cute. And it was really cute then. It still is adorable.

Lisa: He’s still a hot dog. Three years later.

Corinna: But you just. The way you said it, I was like, I love this girl. Like, of course, he’s just a hot dog. And, you know, like, it’s fun. I, you know, I love this town for so many reasons, but the people that it draws in, I think all have a very similar mentality. I think a lot of us love learning, you know, like, so moving to a new area is really cool. Especially when it’s an area that has so many different wonderful little vibrant parts of it that like, you can learn. You know, you could spend a, I don’t know, like there’s. You could be a peach expert and not know anything about nectarines or like, then you got there you about apricots or, you know, like, I mean they’re all in the same stone family, but like, I know more about stone fruit the last five years. And it’s incredible. Like, I grew up. Not like I didn’t grow up around, you know, but they farmed corn across the street. I grew up in a small town. This is a small town. It’s, you know, it’s a very different feel because of, it’s not two hours from New York City, but it’s also like so many things about it are the same. And like, I love that Palisade for the most part, I feel like really tries to, you know, the people who live here really care about maintaining that really charming. People tell me all the time like, this is like Hallmark. And I’m like, I know yeah. Don’t tell anybody.

Lisa: I know and that’s the weird balance too with having a business that is based around bringing people in. And same way. I don’t want my trails to get too crowded either.

Corinna: Yes, right. I think I’m always very honest with people. They’re like, this is amazing. I want to move here. I’m like, yeah, it’ll do that to you. And they’re like, so. And I’m like, yeah, I’ll do that to you. You know, like. And if they do phenomenal, you know, but like, the heat is not. It can be and, you know, I didn’t grow up in wildfire area, and, you know, like, this is the second fire we’ve had that’s gotten this close in the time that I’ve lived here.

Lisa: Yeah. You know, that’s a tough thing about living out here, for sure. And, like, we have been lucky the last few years that we haven’t had any fires for, like, five years.

Corinna: yeah, it’s since 2020.

Lisa: Right. Since 2020.

Corinna: Yeah.

Lisa: The big, big one. Yeah. So we’ve been lucky. And every summer I’ve been like, phew. We got through it.

Corinna: Made it through another one. Yeah.

Lisa: So, yeah, this one. It’s our time. There are always downsides to anywhere you are, and I think that’s a thing that’s sure to set you up for disappointment. If you came in here thinking it actually is like a Hallmark community.

Corinna: Yes.

Lisa: Or a Hallmark card. Like, there are always gonna be things about a place that are less than positive.

Corinna: Yeah. Right. I mean, this is an expensive area. It’s not getting any cheaper. I get it. It’s, if you work hard, you deserve to be able to live where, and at the same time, my industry that I did back east just doesn’t exist here.

Lisa: Right.

Corinna: And it was, I moved here before working at home was such a huge thing. So it was like, now I’m just gonna make the best of it and try to, long term. I still don’t own a home Palisade. And if that ever happens.

Lisa: Yeah.

Corinna: I’m not sure, at this point, but, you know, I still love it.

Lisa: Yeah.

Corinna: It’s an amazing place. I think we both have a pretty big love of Palisade history. I like to tell the real cutesy kind of stories. Not that I don’t know more of them but. I have to have. I like to call them like the 10 cent stories, like they like, if I was somebody, if I was back in the day, that’s the story that I’d be like hawking to the top of the. If I was old paper boy. I don’t know. But anyway, but if you could interview a Palisade historical figure. Have you ever thought of this?

Lisa: Yeah, I feel like all. I mean, I can think of some ideas.

Corinna: Right. I mean, you know enough about Palisade history. Like who would you interview from the early days? Like pre 1930, 1940.

Lisa: Well, that takes my. I was going to a say Wayne Aspinall, but that takes that out.

Corinna: Oh yeah. No, because, when he, 50 something.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. And he seems like. I mean honestly, I probably would personally like dislike him, but I think he seems like such a like a divisive, important character for Palisade.

Corinna: Yeah.

Lisa: And I say that because he was known to be kind of a jerk.

Corinna: I have heard stories of that. You know, as you know, I like to read the old Tribunes.

Lisa: But then you wonder, you’re like how much of that was really true. So I think that would be really interesting. Plus, he was probably the most famous resident of Palisade ever of all time, so. But if I were to go back before that and say like some of the first residents of town about what life was like here, before they even knew what they could grow here or you know, how did, how did they actually. How did it actually work?

Corinna: Like how did they end up.

Lisa: Yeah. And did they. Were they here just for survival reasons or did they actually like it here, you know?

Corinna: Yeah.

Lisa: That would be very interesting.

Corinna: Yeah.

Lisa: How about you?

Corinna: I want to talk to the first member of the Priscilla Walker family. Priscilla is such an amazing strong woman. I would love to see the people that raised her. And also this is like one of my fun facts, fun fact. The Wine Valley Inn on the corner there at First and Elberta. Carmine, whose last name always escapes me, was one of the first. I think he’s the guy that built it. But one of the. I’m pretty sure it’s the guy that built it or he lived there very, very early on, was responsible for a part of the radiator on the Model T Ford. So like, had he not invented this radiator component there, the Model T Ford would not have been able to run. Like, they wouldn’t have been able to cool the engine, you know. There’s a couple, like, the peach picking baskets and stuff like that are like, cool, but that’s like very Palisade cool. Like, you know, how would these guys do this if they didn’t have these, like the stilts? Like, how would they have done it? But yeah, the Model T Ford guy. you know, and they built such a. Like their house is such a cool. Like they really, they really went there. It’s a really style, you know, it’s really pretty. Pretty property.

You know, this area has a very interesting history. I don’t know, I’ve always, probably because I, I don’t know, my grandfather watched a lot of westerns, you know, like, I’ve always, always like the western culture. And maybe because I was east coast kid, I don’t know, maybe western kids that grew up in the west dream of New York City. I didn’t dream of New York City. Well, I did for a little while, but I got over it real fast. Real fast. I got over that one.

To be fair. You know what, if I’m being honest and very. A little bit heavier than podcast demands. 9/11 probably helped me get over New York City, you know, because I was 21 when that happened and I still wanted to move there, like for a little while after. That’s when I worked at, like, I worked at an investment firm, in Wilmington, Delaware, and you know, Morgan Stanley, they have a huge New York presence. They’d also lost a ton of people in the World Trade Center. So. Yeah, I don’t know if that’s what it was or, you know, it’s fun when you’re in your early 20s to think about living in the big city. I’ve always been a small town girl, so maybe that’s why, like, that dream quickly was like. No, no, no.

Lisa: Yeah, no, I definitely had that dream too. And even after, because I was 20 then I was still in college and.

Corinna: Yeah.

Lisa: Still wanted to move to New York.

Lisa: It didn’t. I don’t think it really. It was really fun being in a city in my 20s in Chicago. It was really fun. Like, I would never change that. But I also definitely aged out of it.

Corinna: Yeah.

Lisa: And I think part of it is just like people, your friends, they meet other people, they have families, they move away. And then you’re always starting to like try to make new friends and over and over. And at one point I just realized this how it’s always gonna go. And, yeah, it just gets exhausting. Plus there’s no nature or anything like that. So it took me longer. It actually took me until two years ago until I finally let go of that regret of never having moved to New York City after college.

Corinna: Interesting.

Lisa: When I had that job there. And I just spent so much time there, and I’m like this is a very hard place to live.

Corinna: Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa: This would be really difficult and unpleasant.

Corinna: Yes.

Lisa: So it’s a good place to be in your 20s.

Corinna: Yeah. That’s cool. I love this little, this little swatch of land, but, yeah, I think maybe it’s. It is the, you know, what you don’t grow up with. I grew up in the middle of the woods like you did, but I also could see it. So it’s, you know, this I couldn’t see.

Lisa: Yeah.

Corinna: You know, like, I had family and we visited out here every once in a while. I actually lived out in Reno when I was a little little kid. So, like, I had been out here, but not, like. I don’t know.

Lisa: Yeah, not as an adult.

Corinna: Not as an adult. And, you know, like, I still have. I still have daydreams that involve Western theme things, you know, I just. I don’t know. Cut all that.

Lisa: Yeah.

Corinna: You know, it’s just. I love it here.

Lisa: Me, too. Lately I’ve met. At the bike rides, I’ve met a bunch of people who have just moved here. I’ve met four different couples who have just moved here in the last few weeks.

Corinna: That’s awesome.

Lisa: I’m like, partly. I know some of the old timers. I don’t know if I’ll ever get like this. Maybe I will someday, are like, don’t let any new people in. But I think part of what keeps living here interesting is that new people do keep coming, and they keep bringing their new ideas, and they keep bringing, like, new experiences and things with them. So I love meeting the new people who keep moving in.

Corinna: I do, too. I do, too. And I think there’s has to be a healthy. You know, there’s enough people that have decided that they’re getting older, they don’t want to maintain a bigger property or families get bigger and want more space. Like, a lot of the houses in Palisade aren’t, they’re not huge houses. Like these are, not that all of them are. There’s certainly the option for bigger homes but, like, I think that that is an important part of a healthy community is, it’s just gonna happen.

Lisa: Yeah.

Corinna: People get different jobs and have to move away.

Lisa: Or they grew up here and they hated it and they just could not wait to move to the middle of nowhere in upstate New York.

Corinna: Yes. Happens so frequently. I have two, like, fun questions left. I’m gonna ask you both of them first so that you have time to think about the first one. How about that?

Lisa: Okay.

Corinna: All right. If you had to pick a theme song for Peachy Pedicab, what would it be?

Lisa: Right.

Corinna: So there’s one. You can think about that. But what trivia topic? So here we are. Final Jeopardy. what trivia topic would you risk it all on? What obscure…

Lisa: Okay, so first of all, I would never risk it all on anything because of, I’m too risk averse. So I don’t know how good of a business partner that’s gonna make me long term.

Corinna: But no, this is why. Because I’ll risk everything all the time. This is why I need Lisa, y’all. Why I need her.

Lisa: I doubt my knowledge on things, so I would risk a large majority of my winnings, which I assume would be ginormous.

Corinna: Yes, of course.

Lisa: on like geography. I mean, I’m just like, I know a. I’m like a weird geography nerd.

Corinna: Yes.

Lisa: So if that came up, I’d be like, yeah! And then it would probably be something totally obscure I’d never heard of before.

Corinna: No, no. I would bet my money if you were betting yours on geography, if that was your topic. I really. She’s got this. If it was like Utah canyon identification, I’d be like $1 million.

Lisa: Yeah. Anything western and anything kind of related to like natural history in the west, I feel. I would feel pretty good about. Or world geography or like, Russian literature.

Corinna: Yes. Love it.

Lisa: I also could know. Yeah. How about you?

Corinna: I, think not Russian literature, but if you ask me anything about the Romanov family, I could probably. That particular topic I’ve always been fascinated by. I have probably half a dozen books on my shelf right now. Or like 3rd gen Toyota 4 runners or most Toyota 4 wheel drive vehicles. I think I could probably, I could probably make us some money if I was betting on my knowledge base on those.

When people ask me what I’m gonna do in the wintertime, I’m like, I haven’t gotten that far yet. Because it’s also why I’m not working another job whilst trying to start a pedicab company because I am. I put everything into it all the time and I don’t want, you know, like I’m just gonna put everything I have into it right now and then we’ll go from there. But that applies. I don’t know how to do anything halfway or I try not to. If I really love it, then I want to know everything about it. My people, my vehicles, you know, whatever, whatever the topic may be, you know, like I love the river. So I’m gonna find out like, oh, we’re going on the river. Let me get this book. I’m gonna read this whole thing backwards and forward nine times. Still maybe flip on a class two. It’s okay, everybody survived rig to flip. We ain’t lose nothing but some sunglasses.

Lisa: It was a very hard class two. It was deceptively hard.

Corinna: It was, you know, I’ve given myself a lot of grace on that. It was tough and I was not rigged out properly and that was my fault. It was. But we got it all figured out. I think that probably that moment was a pretty big catalyst just in general for me. Like once I made it through that, you know, I almost hated what I loved the most. And so like being able to like take a step back and like regroup when I typically am pretty critical of myself was really, like it was a big moment for me to know that I had the ability to like keep going even when stuff gets like crazy hard.

Lisa: Yeah. And that’s a really good example of that because like you have to keep going. You have to force yourself to.

Corinna: There is no option.

Lisa: Keep going and yeah, there’s nothing else. Yeah, that was a really good trip. That was a great learning experience.

Corinna: That was an incredible trip. No, that was definitely a life changing trip.

Corinna: I still think about that a lot.

Lisa: Yeah, I do too. Because I was really scared going into it and I think we did some pretty scary stuff and just seeing that, like it can be okay. Whenever you go through something and you’re like the worst case thing happens and, and it’s okay, you know, it’s like okay.

Corinna: Yeah, like take a deep breath. Right. And I, you know, I am often a little impulsive, let’s say, so like you know, knowing that like I, I could force myself to like calm down like I had to give myself a minute. I needed to get there. But, like, knowing that I could, like, flip my mindset the opposite way, like, I was capable of that, that was really, like. That was a big moment. Yeah, yeah, that was. It was great. No, it was a great trip. And like, as soon as we started talking about geography, I was like, how many panels do you think you’ve seen? How many petroglyph panels?

Lisa: Oh my God. Like, a lot.

Corinna: Like, give me over/under over a hundred.

Lisa: Oh, yeah.

Corinna: Over 200?

Lisa: Umm.

Corinna: You think it’s somewhere in between them?

Lisa: Yeah. Well then. And I’m saying what’s a panel. I’m being all pedantic. A lot. I really love petroglyphs.

Corinna: Yeah.

Lisa: And I like. I just really love them a lot. I mean, I love art. And so it’s just a continuation of like, I love any way that people express themselves. Well, music, art, any. Any way people express themselves that is like, not quote, unquote, necessary to, like, our daily existence is fascinating. And I love that it’s always been something that humans have done and cared about. And I also love the mystery. Like, we’ll never know why exactly they did this stuff or what they mean. And you can only just kind of speculate.

Corinna: And you can go real far on the speculations. And I. That’s so fun. Like, yeah, we’ve stood around and stared at a panel and made up a story and it’s great. Like, it’s such an incredible thing to be able to do from however many centuries later. Yeah, I think it’s really cool.

Lisa: And I don’t want to give too much away because I don’t like to give away my places. But I do think one nearby area that’s super underrated, that would actually be really good for more people to know about is Nine Mile Canyon. And it’s like a two and a half hour drive from the Grand Valley. And it is the best and the most rock art I’ve seen in my entire life. It’s in Utah. It’s southwest of Vernal. And it’s just so under the radar. There’s not a lot of information out there about it. And partly is because it kind of shares the land with like, an oil and gas lease. And so that’s the situation where I feel like I want more people going there to see the history so that it isn’t like, underrated or under-visited. You know, it’s not under counted.

Corinna: I love that.

Lisa: But it’s also some of the best stuff I’ve seen.

Corinna: It’s funny because I had thought of asking you where one of your favorite places is, but I also know that we were. If you’re truly an adventurer and you’re going out and finding these things and like, it’s not fair, you know, like, I don’t want to like knock people for the insta. Like, I’ve certainly found amazing places because of Instagram. But at the same time, like, I’ve also, I’ll never forget the first time I stopped to the Glade Park store and she was like, go up there, turn on nine and something something and go over two cattle guards. And I was like, right. That’s how we’re giving directions, and I mean I give directions the same way. But I wanted to ask you, but then I didn’t want to you to feel like, obligated to give away one of your secrets.

Lisa: Other things I want give away. It’s like, I’ll tell. I’ll show people things like where some of my favorite cacti live.

Corinna: Yes.

Lisa: And you know, I’ll tell people things if they’re gonna go there. But it’s like like natural hot springs, like really cool petroglyph panels that are hard to get to. Like cool rock formations and like part of the fun of those and the joy of those is like finding it and the adventure and the word of mouth. So yeah, I’ll just say Nine Mile Canyon though because you can drive right out to it and I feel like it just needs more people to go see like how spectacular it is.

Corinna: Absolutely.

Lisa: So anyway, love it. How about you. Do you have a thing like that that you’re just like, natural history wise you seek out?

Corinna: I also, I. I like rocks.

Lisa: I also love rocks and I love dirt. I like dirt that has different colors.

Corinna: Yes, yes, we’ve talked about this. You know, this is one of the things we’ve, like Lisa and I want to ask questions, but we know so much. Lisa and I both love green. like the cool light green that comes from like the coppery dirt. There’s a lot of it like out by the Cisco when you take out, after Ruby Horsethief that whole. There’s like a whole wall of it there that’s really cool. and you know, we’ve done enough adventuring that we’ve seen some really cool stuff together. Lots of really cool panels. Not enough. We could do lots more. I want us to do lots more. But I mean at this point we have now seen you know there’s some incredible hot springs that we’ve hit on the sides of rivers that you know, got to be on the river to do it.

Lisa: Yeah, those are some of the places I feel like that’s the most special. Like this is so cool that we get to do this stuff.

Corinna: Yeah. There’s truly the moments that I look back on like I can’t believe I live this life.

Lisa: OK what’s your. Oh Sorry.

Corinna: You know, go ahead.

Lisa: I get too excited. I’m too excited to know, what’s your favorite rock?

Corinna: I really like. Not that I’ve ever found one in the wild but Colorado’s our state rock like is the Rhodochrosite. It’s this really cool. It’s like a, it’s rose quartz. It’s the gemmy kind of if you took rose quartz and made it little more gemmy. I believe that’s Rhodochrosite. Like they’re all in the same family.

Lisa: Like that.

Corinna: Yes, that’s it.

Lisa: Oh that’s gorgeous.

Corinna: Does it say it’s like the Colorado State Mineral or something. One of my favorite spots, and I’m not giving away any secrets, is, like, Glade Park potholes. They’re kind of a pain in the butt to get to. That road is so washboarded out. But, it’s on a hot, hot day, man. They’re just incredible. Especially if it’s low water, because you can just kind of hang in the pool at the bottom. But my. One of my favorite parts of them is to get to them, you follow a path of rose quartz. Like, there’s, like, literally a rose quartz vein that, you know, goes from, like, the footpath. And you’re like, where do I go? Oh, do do do do. And you just follow this rose quartz path. And I’ve always thought that was really cool.

Lisa: This sounds amazing. I don’t know about this place.

Corinna: You haven’t been to Glade Park potholes? What are you doing this afternoon? Let’s go. Where’s Paul? Let’s go.

Lisa: He’s working.

Corinna: Oh. So Glade Park is, it’s the Little Dolores Creek. So it runs, you know, up on Glade Park. but it has, like, a little pool at the top, and then it drops down, and there are two exceptionally deep pools. I don’t know how deep they are. People cliff jump into them. It’s not very safe. Search and rescue has most assuredly gone out there more times than they would probably like to because, you know, I love those folks. I think we rescued a dog out of there once while I was on the team. But, the pools are, like, that heavy, deep, like quarry water is the best way I can think of describing it as a kid that grew up back east near quarries,

Lisa: like mystery water.

Corinna: Mystery hole. Yeah. There’s literally a place at county park closest to where I grew up that we called the mystery hole. And they did not. They pulled a whole bunch of, like, cars out of it that had been dumped and, you know, they finally, like, put a fence up, but not until like, maybe the last 15 years. But yeah, it was literally called the mystery hole. That’s hilarious.

Lisa: I feel like those are one of the things, like quicksand that loomed large, as like the most terrifying places in my childhood.

Corinna: Yeah. And then I moved out here and found quicksand.

Lisa: Yeah, right. I know that was wild. But no, like, the pits at, quarries were one of the places that were just like, if you go close to it, you’re basically just gonna die. Like, I feel like that was what we were told growing up.

Corinna: Yes. In the same way that I, like, warn my son about mine shafts.

Lisa: Good point. Lisa: But Glade Park potholes. I did not even know about that place. I’m really excited to check it out.

Corinna: We’re gonna go for a ride. You’re driving. Not gonna be today.

Lisa: Yeah, let’s go on a clear day.

Corinna: We’ll go on a clear day.

Lisa: Next clear day.

Corinna: Yeah.

Lisa: So the song, I mean, first of all, I believe you told me that someone has already written a song for us.

Corinna: We do have a custom-ish, courtesy of one Dave Smith, to the tune of the Philadelphia Eagles fight song. We do have a Peachy Pedicab theme song that maybe, maybe one of our musical friends will record for me.

Lisa: Maybe we can get Mr. Garry Franklin to record it.

Corinna: Oh, You know, I feel like if I pout enough at some of them, one of them will do it. Geoff. Clayton. Garry.

Lisa: It would d be interesting to hear everybody’s different version of it. They’d be stylistically very different.

Corinna: That’s true. I like this idea. I don’t hate this idea. We’ll see what we could do for that. It’s a very easy song to remember, but yeah.

Lisa: Okay. Well, it.

Corinna: Other than that particular.

Lisa: I mean, I guess I just think about what do you play the most and, you know, you play the Queen song. I want to ride my bicycle. Or Bicycle Race. Right.

Corinna: Yes. Bicycle Race is the official title.

Lisa: Queen, Bicycle Race. Just because you play that song the most. So I think of it.

Corinna: I do.

Lisa: I want to ride my bike. Yeah, right. Like, you have. That kind of sums it up.

Corinna: I think that’s a good one. Yeah. I mean, I’ve thought of this and there’s like. It’s funny because I think of lines, not necessarily songs or like, you know, I feel like every season there’s like one particular song that I just love. I fall in love with, and I play the hell out of it because it’s great and I can sing it and, you know, I’m. I love music. You know, we like. You know, we’ve had a lot of fun nights of karaoke at the Liv.

Lisa: No, I’m retired now. That’s a whole other story.

Corinna: I know. I haven’t. Haven’t. I haven’t. I haven’t.

Lisa: We referred to that last time. And it’s still will not be told.

Corinna: We still haven’t done it. I know. Yeah, it’s. It’s still in the past. Yeah, like, I have these, like, little theme songs for the year. Like this year, there’s that Bruno Mars. I don’t even know if it’s apartment or apt. All I know is that, like, during the chorus, it’s like, I’m on my way. I like, yeah, that’s me. I’m on my way. But like, Lil Boo Thang was one a couple years ago. It’s still one of my best. Like, pedicab moments, memories, I guess, or moments. Me and Aaryn Russell, who’s great guy, you know, we’re riding back. We had just dropped people off at, probably basecamp. I’m pretty sure it was basecamp. Maybe an Airbnb out there. But I had Lil Boo Thang and we were like, riding back side by side on North River Road, and it’s late and we had had a long weekend, but it was like, finally it cooled off, it was dark and we were just jamming out. It was great. It was hilarious. I still, like. I don’t ever still don’t hear that song without thinking of that particular moment. It was great. It’s a good one. So that. And then, you know, like a whole bunch of, like, Beyonce, girls we run this, girl power inspired songs.

Lisa: Yes. These are all good.

Corinna: But.

Lisa: Yeah, love it.

Corinna: All right

Lisa: Well, I guess, before we wrap up, let me think about. Usually I think about what closing question I want to do. And so look at me being real professional. This time next year. So next July.

Corinna: Yeah.

Lisa: What do you think you’re gonna look back and say about the year?

Corinna: I hope I continue to be proud of what we’ve accomplished. I think we’re doing really good. Like, I’m trying not to push it and expect too much of us and myself and know that we have limitations, but that the room for growth is there and that we’re both, we have, I think, a pretty solid view of where we want it to go eventually, I hope. I hope that I don’t look back and regret not. That’s a tough question Lis.

Lisa: I don’t know if I have a good answer to it. I would say I want to look back and be like, damn, we did that. This is.

Corinna: Yeah, like, right. I think we’re doing really good. Like, we’ve had. I have a call I have to return right now. I got a message right at the beginning of our talk, so I feel like we’re on the right track. Our hearts are in the right place. I want to do a good job. You know what I mean? Like, I think both of us are hard enough workers, just, like, you know, I think. I don’t know. I trust you, and I feel like we can absolutely, like, be successful. So I just. Yeah.

Lisa: Same. Yeah. You’re awesome at what you do.

Corinna: As you are

Lisa: And I just want you to stay happy.

Corinna: I’m good.

Lisa: On that note.

Corinna: On that note.

Lisa: Thank you so much for talking with me. And also, I am really excited just to keep working with you and just keep killing it.

Corinna: Me too.

Lisa: Yeah.

Corinna: Thanks for time. I appreciate you too.

Lisa: I appreciate you, too.

Corinna: You’re very peachy.

Lisa: Stay peachy.

Corinna: That’s right.

Lisa: Until next time, stay peachy.

Find out more about Peachy Pedicab at peachypedicab.com or email us at peachypedicab(at)gmail.com.

The podcast’s theme music is Riverbend by Geoff Roper.

Thanks for listening. With love, from Palisade.

Scott High of Colterris joins me to talk about an exciting new space opening soon in Palisade: Colterris Collections. On June 23^rd, Colterris Collections will open their exhibit space, housing over 16,000 pieces of wine memorabilia accompanied by fascinating stories from the world of wine. Join us to hear a few of those stories, along with the story of how Colterris came to be in Palisade!

Visit Colterris Collections at 3708 G Road or colterris.com/colterris-collections

Theme Music: Riverbend by Geoff Roper    

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Transcript:

Welcome to the Postcards From Palisade Podcast. I’m Lisa McNamara. Palisade is most famous for its peaches, but there’s so much more happening in our little town. Join me as I chat with our community members to hear about how they are making Palisade a great place to live and visit.

Today, Scott High of Colterris joins me to talk about an exciting new space opening soon in Palisade: Colterris Collections. The Collections location has been open as a tasting room for a couple years, but on June 23^rd, the name will be fully recognized with the opening of a space housing over 16,000 pieces of wine memorabilia.

Scott and I chat about how he got started with collecting and he shares the fascinating stories of just a few of his favorite objects in the collection. Colterris is Colorado’s largest fully Estate Grown winery, so we also chat about how Scott and his wife Theresa got into winemaking, what’s changed in the decades since they got started, and what originally brought them to Palisade.

Join us for some wild stories from the wide world of wine, on today’s Postcard from Palisade.

Lisa: I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me.

Scott: Oh, my pleasure.

Lisa: And especially the pre-meeting, too. I thought that was really helpful just to see what you have going on here and kind of get the thoughts together. So thank you so much for your time.

Scott: Sure. Your enthusiasm gets me excited.

Lisa: Good. You should be excited. This is a really cool thing.

Scott: Yeah, I think so too.

Lisa: So if you could just introduce yourself and we can start there.

Scott: Okay. Well, that’s easy to do. My name is Scott High. And I grew up in Denver, Colorado. Born and raised there. Love living in Palisade.

Lisa: So we’re recording right now at Colterris Collections at 3708 G Road. And the main thing I want to talk to you about was the or is the new collection. But, first, let’s just give people a visual of this amazing room we’re sitting in, which is also new. so tell me about this room and what kind of events you’re going to host here.

Scott: Well, when we purchased the facility, we saw a potential for this room. It has a lot of nice lighting to it and it’s just the right size for a small, intimate venue for winemaker dinners, guest chef dinners, culinary student dinners, food and wine pairing events, wine educational seminars. There’s a lot of things we can do in here. The Colterris tasting room is, we added this on when we purchased the facility, and it’s just the right size for a group of people. We can seat 34 people. And one of the nice things about this room is everybody has a view of the chef working. And if the chef wants to discuss a course or something, he has everyone’s attention. He or she can visit with the people as he’s preparing things, a winemaker can stand up in front of him and talk to the entire group. No one has their back to the venue, which is really good. There’s a presentation area that everybody feels comfortable seeing it, seeing what’s going on, listening to the winemaker or someone giving a little talk. And it’s really nice. We did it in leather. The center table that seats 18 people is solid oak and it was made the 1950s, so it’s about 75 years old. And it was a conference table at the First National Bank Building of Denver in the 50s and 60s. So it’s really a cool, old table.

Lisa: Very cool. It looks beautiful.

Scott: And so everybody has a community style seating event there.

Lisa: So you call it the Tastevin Room. What is a tastevin?

Scott: So yeah, yeah. The Tastevin Room. Tastevin is something that I learned about at a fairly early age. And tastevins really developed in the 15^th and 16^th centuries. And wine merchants and winemakers would have to go down in these deep dark caves with no electricity. And they had to have a method to check out the color and the clarity of wine. And so they had these shiny little bright objects that would reflect candlelight very well. And tastevins were used for four or five hundred years until electricity came around and they don’t need to do that anymore. But you could carry one in your pocket. If you were in a carriage or on horseback, you wouldn’t bust. And you got familiar with your own personal tastevin. So it became a professional tool for someone in the wine trade. It was a very important thing. And we have about on 300 of them on display in the Colterris Collections and some stories to go with them.

Lisa: Wow. So that’s a good kind of intro to shift over to talking about the Collection. So that’s in the room next door to where we’re sitting right now. And you graciously gave me a little preview tour of it a couple weeks ago. And when we met you were very, very adamant that it’s a collection and not a museum. So I thought that was really interesting. What’s the significance of that distinction?

Scott: Well, when I started collecting these objects years ago, we weren’t really thinking about a museum. But they just. It took on a life of its own and people seemed to enjoy looking at these objects. So when I talked to my wife Theresa about starting this idea, I used the word museum quite a bit. And there was some reluctance on her part to use the word museum. And we discussed it and I think she’s absolutely right. For me, there’s a lot of positive connotations in the word museum. I think it as being place of education, a cultural. How should I say that? Where you have cultural appreciation and it preserves historical objects. It’s a connection to the past. So I like going to museums. Some people do, some people don’t necessarily.

But I think nowadays there’s a negative connotation to the word museum for some people. And sometimes and I think that connection or that connotation for the word museum, sometimes people think of museums as being too formal. They’ll think of museums as being stuffy, antiquated, you know, so outdated sort of feelings. And I don’t think everybody likes to go to museums. They think of it as a drudgery. Or sometimes it reminds them of having to go on an excursion when they were in elementary or junior high school. And they would have to get on a yellow school bus and then get off and stand in single file. And the teacher told them to be quiet until they went into the museum. And they had to not ask questions in the museum and they had to listen and pay attention and be attentive to the person who was gonna guide them through a museum.

So nowadays, I think at least some generations, that’s what their feeling about a museum is. So we wanted to call it the Collections. And I kind of got that idea because of the archives at the Vatican Collections. And there’s a beautiful art gallery in Napa Valley called the Collections. And so it’s a word that, we thought made sense. And so the Colterris Collections, it’s really just a private collection of our objects that I’ve created and collected over 50 years. And so I just don’t want to use something that’s going to be negative. I think when people come to Palisade and they’re on vacation, they might not be expecting to find a wine museum. So, it’s. We’re treading new water here a little bit with this.

Lisa: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Museum stuffy, old, and it definitely is not that it’s gorgeous. So how did you get into collecting? What was the first thing you found and what made you just keep going?

Scott: Well, when I turned 16, I got my driver’s license and I bought a $400 Chevrolet Biscayne, which was my first car. I was looking for any excuse to go driving around. I wanted to go visit friends. I wanted to run to the grocery store for my mother. I wanted anything I could do to get in my car and have this freedom that a driver’s license allowed at the time. So one day I happened to go down to an area in Denver called Antique Row on South Broadway. And I was perusing through an antique store and this little corkscrew caught my eye in a case. And one thing led to another, and so I worked up enough money to go buy that corkscrew. And I have it on display here in the museum.

But what happened when I obtained that corkscrew is I started doing some research about corkscrews. And one of the most interesting things I found out was before the invention of the crown cap and the screw cap and modern bottle making techniques where they were all manufactured the same size, so screw caps worked. Everything that was consumable of a liquid form had a cork in it. It was finished with a cork. So corkscrews were a lot more prevalent in society then than they are now. So women would have to carry a corkscrew in their vanity case to open their perfume bottles. And people would have to have little corkscrews in their pocket all the time if they were gonna have any tonics or medicines. And beer had corks in it and wine certainly had corks in it and spirits and everything else.

So corkscrews were something that everybody used at the time. And a lot of people in the 19th century decided they were going to try and invent a type of corkscrew that was easier to use. So there are over 3,000 patents on corkscrews. And that kind of piqued my interest. So I tried to find out more about it, and I discovered that no matter how much I learned, there was more to learn. I did. I was very fortunate one time to obtain a corkscrew that actually received the first patent for a corkscrew in 1795. So we have that corkscrew on display and it’s kind of cool.

Lisa: Very cool. So corkscrew was kind of the intro object. And I guess in a way that. Do you feel like that kind of got you started your whole wine career?

Scott: Well, my parents were wine merchants even at that time. And let’s try that again. This is frequent. This is more than it should. Well, we could go upstairs. There’s a conference room up there. Should we try that?

Lisa: Yeah. Any refrigerators in there?

Scott: This is doing it much more often than I thought. No, not there isn’t.

Lisa: Okay. Okay.

Lisa: thanks to the magic of editing, you might not be able to tell just how often the fridge and freezer were kicking on and off in the tastevin room. While this equipment is super important for the functioning of the kitchen, it is not ideal for the recording of a podcast! Fridges are my podcast nemesis. Once we moved up to the conference room, the recording went much more smoothly…

Lisa: So we were just talking about if the corkscrew was the thing that brought you into the wine industry or if it was something else.

Scott: So when I was growing up, my parents were wine merchants in Denver and I developed an interest in wine from a very early age. We would have family discussions on Sundays about wine and I would ask my dad what’s the difference between a three dollar bottle and a thirty dollar bottle? And that would lead to more information probably than I wanted at the time. But we studied wine and I remember riding my 10 speed bicycle to the public library and checking out books on wine and going to used bookstores and buying books on wine. It’s kind of an odd thing for a young person to do that. But I wanted to know why wine was, why it involved so many subjects. Why it involved history and culture and science and it just seemed to be an all encompassing subject and it was something that I enjoyed on Sunday evenings at dinner, even as a young person. My dad would make sure that we all got a little taste of the wine.

Lisa: So corkscrews, you mentioned you have a few. I would guess it’s the largest object by far that you have in the Collection, is that right? And if so, how many or how many do you have?

Scott: It is, we have probably close to 18,000 antique corkscrews.

Lisa: Wow.

Scott: And we’re going to end up with probably 3,000 or 4,000 on display. There’s a lot of duplicates and there are things that aren’t as meaningful as others, so we’re trying to put collections together, on exhibit that makes sense, that tie together for different reasons, whether they’re from the same country or the same inventor or the same time period, things like that. But I think they’re fun, you know, they’re not only a tool, but they’re fun, to look at and fun to use certainly. And it’s really odd because at Colterris I decided to go with a Stelvin closure, which is a type of screw cap on our wines, nine years ago. So I don’t need a corkscrew to open my wine. But if I did, I have plenty of them.

Lisa: That’s pretty funny. That’s actually really ironic. I didn’t think about that.

Scott: Yeah, it’s kind of odd.

Lisa: That’s pretty funny. So getting back to the collection, we had talked about maybe picking like three to five of your favorite objects and going into a deep dive on them. Is that something that makes sense that you want to talk about or.

Scott: Sure. It’s hard to narrow it down to three objects, you know, three things that I’m proud of to own. But there are some unique things and some of the things that I purchased over the years were from descendants of the person involved in that object. So, for example, I have this tastevin, once again, that was presented to Napoleon Bonaparte during his hundred days of reign in 1815, where he met his Waterloo later on in the summer. But Napoleon was out on kind of a recruiting trip. He had escaped the island of Elba in exile and he’d kicked Louis XII back off the throne. And he was trying to reamass his troops and get a lot of new soldiers because he knew the seventh coalition was going to be coming after him again. So he was trying to raise a couple hundred thousand people into his military very quickly. So he was visiting different cities and different towns and he happened to drop by a small village called Saint Jean de Braye, and it’s outside of Orleans.

And he had kind of done a favor to one of his adjutants to go to this small village because one of his loyal people was from that village. And he asked the emperor if the emperor could just go by and do a 10 minute recruiting trip and a little speech on the town hall steps. And that so that someday when that adjutant retired, he would be kind of the big man on campus. He would be the guy that they’d point to on the park bench and say that old man brought the Emperor Napoleon to our village and that sort of thing. So he wanted to see if he could talk the emperor into doing that. And I can’t imagine him even bringing up the subject. But Napoleon quickly acquiesced. They were going to go right through the village area anyway. And Napoleon parked his garrison of troops and rode his white horse into the village. He met several hundred people, around the town hall. The mayor of the town presented him with a little tastevin, believe it or not, that’s engraved with the date of the event and the fact that they were celebrating Napoleon’s visit to their city. And he presented to Napoleon. Napoleon graciously accepted it. And then when the speech was over and they walked down off the town steps, Napoleon gave it back to the mayor. He just said, I’m not taking your silver. You know, the French Revolution was just a few years ago. And the last thing I want to do is to accept something that you scraped together to do that for me. So he was appreciative gave the tastevin back to the mayor.

And I got it from, I think the seventh generation descendant of the mayor’s. And so it’s something that the emperor actually held in his hand. And it means a lot. We had an exchange student who came to Palisade High School and stayed with us for a semester a long time ago. And I showed him this tastevin, and he started to cry when he held it. He couldn’t believe that he was touching something and holding something that the Emperor Napoleon had actually done the same. So he, he teared up. And then I showed him another object that I’m very proud of. I showed him a corkscrew, a wooden handled corkscrew that was recovered from the Battle of Waterloo, in June 1815. And then this young French, student, he got angry, the tears stopped, he got angry, and he said, we should have never lost that war. And he became very, very nationalistic in his approach to the corkscrew. But he was delighted to be able to see those objects.

This Battle of Waterloo corkscrew I bought from a descendant of the man who basically helped to loot the battlefield after the battle. And at that time, French officers, generals, and colonels and above, they were provided corkscrews. And they received bottles of wine and bottles of brandy before their battles. And they would need a corkscrew to open the bottles of brandy and wine. I think they called it a little bit of liquid courage at the time for the soldiers. But the infantry and the cavalry, they didn’t need a corkscrew because they drank wine out of barrels of wine, so it was not required for them. But this corkscrew from the Battle of Waterloo actually has a French artillery symbol on it and Napoleon’s crown. So that’s how we were able to authenticate that the story I got when I bought it was true. It might be the only one in existence, I’m not sure.

Lisa: Well, that’s really cool.

Scott: Yeah, it’s pretty special. Something else I have that’s unique is, I obtained a sherry glass that had King George III’s emblem etched on it. And I wasn’t sure it was what I thought it was, but so I sent it off to the Victoria and Albert Museum about 20 years ago, and they wanted to keep it. And that told me it was real. So they wanted to keep it. It was the only one that they had ever seen that had gold dust rolled into the stem of the wine glass. And the glass blower must have done that at quite an additional cost. But they theorized that it was probably part of his King George III’s inner circle to have the gold in it. And it’s amazing that something that’s so fragile and could be broken so easily has survived that over 200 years. So it’s really a special thing, and I’m very proud to have that. I get nervous when I have to handle it and put it into the display case, but now it’s sitting pretty. I didn’t want anything to happen to that. So there’s a lot of fun things. It’s hard to narrow it down.

Lisa: Yeah. Is there anything that you’ve really wanted to collect that you weren’t able to get or anything you’re seeking that you haven’t been able to find so far?

Scott: If my wife listens, I’d have to say no, I have everything I need. I don’t think there’s anything else ever I would need in this subject. It’s hard to figure out what the next thing is that I might uncover or find. But nothing comes to mind that I really wished I had right now. No, I can’t really think of anything really, per se.

Lisa: Okay. All right. Good answer. So you just touched on a few of the objects out there. There are a lot more. And I know when you walk into the museum, there’s going to be a little bit about the history of Colterris and Palisade winemaking. Can you talk a little bit about what you’ll feature there for local wine history?

Scott: Well, what we’re doing there is we’re basically trying to answer a couple questions that someone will ask when they come in to see the Collections. And already we’ve had some sneak peeks where people have seen things. And the questions they ask are, where in the world did you get this? And how much did you pay for that? And where did this come from? How did you find this? So those sorts of questions. So in the very first display cases, when you enter the museum or the Collections, you’ll see a little bit of family history in how Theresa and I met in the wine business and how we have this common passion about the world of wine. And you’ll see a few things about places that we traveled and times that we spent out and about learning more about the world of wine and visiting famous winemakers and famous places. And it’s more about our background. And there’s a little bit about Colterris in there and a little bit about the Canyon Wind Winery that we purchased and the Plum Creek Winery that’s here at this location that we purchased for the Collections. Not an awful lot about the history of Palisade wine in there. I don’t want to start competing with the Palisade History Museum and Priscilla Walker and that sort of thing. She does a great job, and I would like to leave most of that up to her. But we have more of a worldwide view about wines, so not a lot of local history.

Lisa: So a good day would be start at the Palisade History Museum. That’ll give you the whole picture of wine in the Grand Valley.

Scott: Sure, yeah. And I love what Priscilla Walker did over there. It’s really fun to see the history of Palisade, especially displayed the way she did it.

Lisa: Walk me through the space. It’s absolutely gorgeous. It’s a very big room. Beautiful chandeliers, shiny floor, shiny cases, lit up artifacts. How do you want a visitor to experience this space and what’s their visit going to be like?

Scott: Well, I think some things that I’d like for people to know about would be that, we designed the display cases here locally and we had them fabricated here locally. And all the components for the display cases were made here. We had Osburn Cabinets do the melamine inserts, and we had SSD Plastics make all the glass fronts, and The Glass Brokerage did the shelving, and Clemmer Welding did all the displays. And so we wanted to be 100% local, if possible. Theresa had the chandeliers custom made, and they’re fine art chandeliers. They’re traditional but yet modern. They have a modern twist to them. And we wanted to provide some lighting up there. But I’m very proud of the fact that we have different sorts of lighting. And it’s all on dimmers. We have track lights that point up into the architectural clouds that absorb the sound. We have track lights that illuminate the floors in front of the cases. Everything seems to be very clean.

And we have little areas where the display cases, you can fall into a little pod area where there’s four or six display cases around you and you can enjoy those for a time and really not see anybody else necessarily in the next pod of display cases. So there are nine or ten of those pod areas where people can kind of get immersed into those subjects and really feel like they’re interacting with the exhibits themselves, which I think is fun. It’s not dusty or dirty or old or, it’s very modern and clean and efficient. And we have a lot of stories. So one of the things that I think people can do is they can work at their own pace through the museum. They can go at their own pace, where they see something of interest, they can spend more time there. If they see something that really isn’t of that much interest to them personally, they can just get an overview of it and move on.

So I did have some people who told me that they want to come and read every display case and every sign and they want to absorb it all completely. And the gentleman started looking at one case, and he spent about 20 minutes on that one case. There are 60 of those. So I’m not sure we’ll be open that many hours that day. There’s a lot to see. I think that’s the gist of it. And a lot of different stories. And I’m really proud to put those stories in there.

There’s another story that I think is really fun. Sometimes I tell this story, but I put it in writing as best I could. But there was a traveling salesperson who worked for a printing company in Chicago in the 1920s and 1930s. And this traveling salesperson, his job was to go see customers in different cities, particularly in the Midwest. And as he traveled around and fell into the Great Depression era, he discovered that he had to try to find the best places to eat that were the cleanest, the most sanitary, that provided the best food. Because a lot of people in the 20s and 30s were getting food poisoning. There weren’t any chain dependable restaurants. Everything was independently owned. And so he kept a little log book of the best place to have breakfast in Nashville and the best place to have ribs in Kansas City. And so he started little list. And then he ran into some other traveling salespeople that had lists. And so he exchanged lists and his list of good restaurants to eat in grew.

And so with that, a Chicago newspaper one time ran an article about his unusual hobby of collecting good places to eat in his notebooks. They wrote an article about him and his unusual hobby. And he then became inundated with letters and phone calls from people who said, they’re going to Santa Fe, where’s a good place for dinner. So he started spending almost all of his time answering letters and trying to be courteous and polite to people who wanted to know a safe place to eat or a good place to eat. And he realized that he was putting too much time into that and not enough time into his job at one point.

So in the fall of 1936, he printed up 1,000 pieces of paper that had 167 different restaurants on it. And he mailed them to everybody he knew. He put them in his Christmas cards, all of his business associates, all of his customers. And he thought, that’ll put an end to it by doing it. He’ll just put an end to it. And so he’ll provide the list and then he’ll be done with it. Well, that fueled another problem because then everybody, it seemed, wanted a copy of that list. So in the spring of 1937, he printed up another thousand. And to cover his printing costs and stuff, he sold them for a dollar a piece. And in 1937, $1,000 for 1,000 pieces of paper was a lot of money.

So that fueled the idea for him to finally self-publish a book. And he printed up a book that had, I think by that time, almost 400 restaurants in it. But he was very, a person of very high integrity. And he couldn’t be bought off. He couldn’t get a restaurant on there if someone paid for it, if they weren’t any good. So he had really high standards and people admired that. And then before long, he was selling 5,000 books a year, then 10,000 books a year. And in the course of the rest of his life, until 1960 or so, he had sold 3 million copies of this, which turned out to be a restaurant guide. And he became somewhat famous at the time. And then a cake mix company in Nebraska asked him to recommend their cake mix. And after five years of trial and error to get this cake mix the way this man wanted it, he finally acquiesced and let them put his name on the box. And his name was Duncan Hines.

Lisa: Oh my goodness.

Scott: And there really was a man named Duncan Hines. And he was not just in charge of cake mixes, but then he licensed his name for other things. Well, I have a bottle of French Beaujolais from 1953 that on the neck band says a Duncan Hines selection, just like the cake mix. And I think that’s a funny story.

Lisa: That is funny. I have to say there’s not where I thought it was going to go.

Scott: Yeah, but people don’t realize that there really was a Duncan Hines. There really was not a Betty Crocker. So it’s kind of an interesting thing. I have a fun letter that he personally wrote to some friends of his he was gonna go visit in Indianapolis in the 1940s. And he must have been a character because he asked if they still had their liquor cabinet because he wanted to enjoy some of their beverages. But he must have been a partier.

Lisa: It sounds like. Sounds like the life of the party, the one person everybody wants to go to. That’s really funny. Yeah. Not expecting that to go there. So in the room itself, when you enter, you have a beautiful bar to your right. It seems like part of the experience is also designed for someone to come in and have a glass of wine and maybe sip a glass of wine as they’re walking around too.

Scott: Right, exactly. we wanted this to be a kind of a fun place, a place that people would enjoy coming to. And we’d like for people to come back more often to, we’re going to be changing exhibits once in a while, but when you come into the museum, you can certainly have a glass of Colterris wine and carry it around, walk around. We’re going to have some benches to sit at, and we’re gonna have some cocktail tables and our wine barrels to sit your drink on when you’re enjoying the tours. And I think it’s gonna be a nice event because I know that when I used to ride those school buses, they never offered me any wine to go to those exhibits. So, yeah, it’s a wine museum. It’s a collection of historical wine objects, but you can enjoy it with a glass of wine because we are in Colorado’s wine country, so it made sense to us.

Lisa: Yeah, makes sense. So tell me about the grand opening. When does it open? What’s that going to look like?

Scott: Well, it’s, coming up pretty quickly. After 54 years of collecting these things, I finally get the chance to show them off. We are going to have a pre-grand opening for some invited guests that are mostly related to the local governments in the Grand Valley. And then we’re going to have the local Palisade industry, the other wineries, and the bed and breakfast, and the restaurateurs and people who are associated with the tourist business. We’re going to invite everybody to that regard so they can get a little preview of it. And then Monday the 23^rd, we’re gonna open at 10am and then every day except major holidays from then on, we hope.

Lisa: Wonderful. And there’s an admission. Right. So there is an admission cost.

Scott: Yeah. So to defer all these expenses that we’re incurring here, we’re going to have to charge an admission and it’s going to be $20 to come into the museum for as long as you want to stay that day. And if you’re a wine club member at Colterris, it’s $15. So I think that’s reasonable.

Lisa: I’ll be having to come back a few times to see everything.

Scott: Yeah, what we want. That’s what we want to hear, Lisa.

Lisa: Is there anything else you want to say about the collection space? Like maybe any events that can be hosted here?

Scott: Yeah. After we laid it out and we had this little set of all these displays that kind of serpentine around the perimeter of the room, I looked at it and I thought, it’s a big enough open space in the middle that we could actually put some tables in. We could move tables in, have parties. We could have concert nights. We could play acoustic music in particular. I don’t think it’s a place for a big rock and roll venue, but.

Lisa: Don’t want to shake that glass.

Scott: Yeah, don’t want to shake. No, I don’t want to shake up the display cabinets. But I think we could have a comedy night, certainly. We could have, like I said, acoustic music, enjoyable evenings like that. One of the things I thought would be really fun is to bring back a little bit of a Copacabana or Coconut Grove night where we have 100 people, dim the lights down, candles on the table, have a classic singer perform for an hour or two and make it feel like the old enjoyable rooms of the 1940s and 1950s where Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and those people entertained. I think that would be a fun evening here where people can do that.

So to that end, we have one area that’s specifically laid out so we can bring a portable stage in that we have. And we put professional stage truss lighting up on the ceiling that’ll illuminate that area. And we have over 60 large, acoustic panels up in the perimeter of the ceiling around to absorb most of that excess sound. And as I alluded to earlier, we have a lot of architectural clouds that include 88 wine barrel heads that have acoustic tiles on the backside of them so you don’t see them. And they kind of hang down in different areas around the pods. So it kind of brings the ceiling down a little bit and has a little more of a feng shui sort of feel to the space where you don’t feel like you’re in a big open spaced warehouse kind of.

But yeah, we’re excited to the possibility of having events down the road. We also, we’re going to try and have some tours down the road, we’ll come to a point where we’re going to do some guided tours and we’re going to work on an audio descriptive narration where people can either get on their iPhones and search in what that display has and then they’ll hear a narration of it. And we hope to do it in multiple languages down the road.

So the next few years we have a lot of work still ahead of us, but I think we want to make this a not just a local venue, but we’d like to make it kind of a regional and a national venue. I had a gentleman visit two weeks ago from France in the wine business and he was shocked at what’s in here and he basically said he’s toured all over the world and been to a few wine museums in France and Italy and Greece and he’s never seen anything quite like this because he thought it was nice to have it a little more lighthearted and not laid out in a chronological fashion so you could just experience a lot of fun, little different things about the world of wine. He was really surprised to find this in Palisade. So I think it’s something I want the whole area to be proud of.

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely.

Scott: Yeah.

Lisa: I’ve heard of rumors that originally you were going to open the collection in downtown Palisade.

Scott: Well, to this. Yeah, you’re right. To this end we purchased what a lot of people call the depot, but it was actually the Palisade branch of the Grand Junction Fruit Growers Association. And that building then later it became the Mountain Lion Building. And it’s architecturally just a fabulous building right in the center of town. I just love the brickwork and the Italian Renaissance roof line. And it has a lot of history to it.

At one time it went over 400 feet to the west as a big packing shed that was on the railroad siding there where they processed Palisade peaches and shipped them all over the country. That burned down I think in the 1970s. But the main offices that were brick didn’t burn down and they were saved. And we still have that, but we bought that because we thought that’d be a great venue for this wine museum. And I think it would have been. But one of the problems was there just wasn’t enough off street parking. And the town proposed that I just use the streets around there to park cars. And I was starting to get some resistance from some of the neighbors, understandably so. And I understand why they wouldn’t want cars parked in front of their house all day.

So we backed away from that project, even after I had done an extensive asbestos remediation of it and had worked up some architectural plans for it and submitted them to the town. And everybody was moving forward until we started to see that there wasn’t enough parking. That was the main thing.

Lisa: That’s a bummer.

Scott: Yeah, we still own it. And as soon as this museum gets opened and rolling, we will start working on some ideas there. But if anybody has any ideas, I’m all ears. So please seek me out and let me know what you think because it is a challenging, fairly difficult place to do something with because from an engineering standpoint and stuff, we’re not sure what the foundation’s like on the building and we’re just not. It would require a lot more investigation before we do anything special with it. But I would love to preserve the building if possible.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I can see, I love that building. I can see it from my window. And yeah, just, just want to make sure it stays. But I see the parking thing because if you look at it, you think, okay, well that land around it is part of it, but it’s actually not like, especially in the front. I think that’s technically, like, technically Peach Street.

Scott: Right. Yeah, no it is, it’s Peach Street.

Lisa: Okay. So yeah, so that’s not even part of the lot.

Scott: Exactly. The east property line basically is just after the bottom step of the building. So there is Peach Street extended there and the town is certainly willing to work with us on that. But the issue is in the existing building right now there’s just not enough square feet to make any economically feasible business operate. It’s just not big enough from a square footage standpoint. So you have to add on probably to the west. And by doing that, then that’s where the issues come in, is how much do you add on, how much parking do you leave available between the building and the next property line to the west. And it’s challenging. I wished it was easier to come up with an idea, but it’s challenging.

Lisa: Yeah. Interesting challenge. So you’re welcome, or you’re open to people reaching out with ideas?

Scott: Sure. Maybe they should, filter them out a little bit themselves first, but, yeah. But, yeah, it is. We’d love to do something with it and something good for the downtown area of Palisade. But it has to be compatible with the desires of the town and the neighborhood and everything. And it’s a beautiful building. We’d love to save it if we can.

Lisa: It is. Yeah. Well, I appreciate your being thoughtful about it.

Scott: Yeah. I wished I could come up with an idea.

Lisa: All right, we’ll be thinking about it. So, shifting over to you and Theresa, what originally brought you to Palisade?

Scott: Well, we came over here for a friend’s wedding. They were actually, they got married in Vail, and we decided to not stay in Vail for one of the pricey hotels. We decided to come on over to the Grand Valley. And she had never been over here before, even though she lived in Denver. And she fell in love with the area immediately. She just said it reminded her of Sonoma County 30 years ago. And she liked the rural aspect of it and not a lot of traffic lights. And certainly the agriculture was very attractive to both of us. We always wanted to have a vineyard somewhere. And matter of fact, to that end, we had looked in Sonoma county and Napa county in California, and Bordeaux, France, and Mendoza, Argentina, and the Willamette Valley. And we had looked all over for a place that we might someday have a vineyard. Growing up in the wine business and being in the wine business all my adult life, it’s a natural thing to try to figure out a way to grow grapes someday. And we saw that opportunity over here, and after the time that she. After that day she fell in love with it, there was no looking back. We actually bought 10 acres, I think within a month or two of her first visit over here. So, that’s how Colterris kind of got started.

Lisa: Okay. And I see some of the lore on the Colterris website is that you promised if Theresa would marry you, that you’d buy her a vineyard. Was that really what sealed the deal?

Scott: Well, we talked about having a vineyard someday, before we were married. And we certainly had that mutual desire. And I think I might have expressed to her that it’s more likely that I would be able to provide her a vineyard someday than a rose garden. And it’d be more compatible with my thoughts and ideas. But now she has both, because we have a rose garden and a vineyard. And so I think she, she got her, her deal there. She got what she wanted. We actually got engaged on a trip in France and Italy visiting vineyards. So, yeah, I think she’s summarized it pretty well that I did promise her a vineyard.

Lisa: I love it. So really, wine has really been the through line of your life and your life together.

Scott: Yeah.

Lisa: So Colterris is the largest estate grown wine producer in Colorado, meaning that Colterris uses your own grapes to make all of your own wine. And you’ve been around for almost 15 years? Is that right?

Scott: Yeah, I think so. I think that’s right. Yeah. Our first vintage was 2008. We didn’t release it until 2010. So I’m not sure where you start with the vintage or the release of the first wine or whatever. But yeah, we really started in 1999 when we bought our first acreage up here is where High Country Orchards and Colterris really began. The first 10 acres we bought were all peaches and the peach trees were just too beautiful and the peaches that came off them were fabulous. So we just kept that peach orchard, got into the peach business and kept looking for another plot of land that we could plant a vineyard. And now we have both.

So we’re very proud of the fact that we’re Colorado’s largest estate winery. It means a lot to me for the authenticity of the wine to actually have the grapes grown here in Colorado. Some wineries, they don’t have that same feeling and they, it’s not as important to them where their source of grapes comes from. But I think if we’re going to have a Colorado winery, we should grow the grapes. I think that’s important. So to that end, we have almost 70 acres of vines now and we’re able to supply the needs of Colterris going forward, for the short term anyway. And we have two really talented winemakers that I’m very proud of, from Colorado actually, which is nice. They were trained in California and elsewhere, but they’re really good winemakers. And we’re operating very compatibly with their abilities and our desires. So we do want to make Colterris always and only from our vineyards. That’s our goal.

Lisa: Yeah, that’s good principle. So in the past, so I’d say. Okay. So since 2008, obviously a lot has changed here in the valley and in the wine industry in Colorado and the world, really. But what do you think are some of the most kind of notable changes or surprising changes to you in the last, ah, X number of years since you’ve started making wine?

Scott: Well, it’s fun to see new wineries come into the area. That excites me when I see another winery come into the area. It saddens me when I see a winery go out of business. So I want everybody to succeed, as far as the wine business goes. I haven’t noticed a lot of changes. I mean, when I first got here, I was really. I remember the Palisade Tribune newspaper. I remembered the breakfast cafes that we used to go to, and I remember all that. I wish that Palisade was progressing faster than it has. And I’m sad with the fact that we haven’t got more fine dining places, places to eat that people would enjoy. We do have really nice ones that are here, but I guess I just want. I want it to prosper better.

I mean, other changes that. Let’s see. Well, one of the things that I think is really remarkable are the people that I’ve met here in Palisade. Looking back, at first, it was kind of difficult to be an outsider and to come in and especially jump into the peach business without a lot of background in it. I think it was challenging. And now we finally feel like we’re part of the community, so that’s a nice feeling.

Lisa: Yeah. So you personally, when you open a bottle of Colterris wine, what’s your go-to? What’s your favorite one?

Scott: Well, it depends on the situation. Depends on the food that we’re preparing or having for dinner. The older I get, the more I like Sauvignon Blanc. I just think our Sauvignon Blanc is delicious and our dry Riesling. Bo and Justin, our winemakers, I think they’re making really good wines. We had a gentleman here yesterday that worked at a winery in California, he tasted five of our wines and he bought a bottle of each. So I think that was a good thing. He liked all five of them. Saying what my favorite wine is is difficult. It’s like saying which one of my children’s my favorite, and that varies every day with their situation with me.

Lisa: I love it. You love them all for different reasons.

Scott: I love them all for different reasons. Right. They’re all they’re truly unique, just like our wines.

Lisa: That’s cute. Personally, I love the Coloradeaux, the Bordeaux style blend. It’s really nice.

Scott: Yeah, it’s really nice. That’s kind of our. I tell people that our Coloradeaux is, it’s our version of a French Bordeaux, obviously. And in the wine business in the United States, if you’re going to have a wine made from vitis vinifera grapes, it has to be 75% that particular grape variety. If you’re making wines from a different species like vitus labrusca or something, it can be 51% Concord and still be called Concord. But for our purposes, when we make a wine, it has to be at least 75% of that varietal. And to me, when I taste a wine that’s 75% Merlot, for example, and 25% something else, it doesn’t necessarily always taste like what I would expect a Merlot tastes like.

So for us to have wines that I would consider to be varietally correct in flavor, they usually have to be way up into the 85, 90, 95 percentile range of that variety. We do want to add some other varieties for complexity and to make the wines more interesting. So we add layers of flavor by adding a little bit of Malbec to the Merlot or Cab Sauv to the Merlot or Cabernet Franc to the Merlot. If we want the Merlot to really be a full bodied, rounded wine with good mid palate flavors and good finish and good aromatics and nice color.

So blended wines are really where the state of the art for winemaking falls into, especially for red wines. But sometimes the winemakers will decide that they want to make a really interesting wine or they can make a really good blend of those variety grapes and not have it be 75% of one of them. So if it’s a varietally named wine from Colterris, I can guarantee it’s way up into the 90 percentiles of that variety. So it’s typical of that variety. But Colterris Coloradeaux is a wine that the gloves can come off for Bo and Justin, and they can make whatever they want. They don’t have to hold to the 75% minimum restriction of a single grape variety. And so it’s kind of their chef special every year. Like a restaurant would have a chef’s special to keep the chef from getting bored with the same thing every day. So once a year, we pretty much allow them to blend to their heart’s content to make an interesting red wine and it truly is one of our standout red wines. Our Coloradeaux Reserve got a double gold medal last year in San Francisco. So it holds its own very well from a national viewpoint of quality. And, yeah, I’m really proud of it. I think it’s an interesting wine every year. It’s special. I’m glad you like that. By the way.

Lisa: Absolutely. It definitely allows their skills to shine. And yeah, it’s always really delicious.

Scott: It has a lot. It has a lot of flavors. And the thing about Coloradeaux, because of the complexity of the grape components of it, it’s going to age and evolve and change quite a bit in the bottle. So it’s one of those wines that will be totally different a year from now than you taste it now as the components ebb and flow. But it’s a special wine.

Lisa: Is there anything else that you want to talk about with the collection, with the winery, with anything?

Scott: Well, our hope and our desire and our goal with the Collections is that it really contributes to the valley, that it really helps the tourism in the valley that we become thought of as a more serious wine growing area in the United States. And the reputation for Palisade is already growing very quickly and very well. It’s doing great as far as the quality of our wines go here and the high altitude viticulture that we can provide for our vineyards is exceptional. I mean, we’re extracting great flavors from our red wines in particular and high acidity in our white wines. And I think we’re making wines that are going to be well thought of in the future from a national standpoint. But I really want the Colterris Collections to be something that pleasantly surprises people when they come to the valley and something that they talk about when they go home, wherever they’re from, and they go, you won’t believe what I saw in Palisade. Little Palisade, Colorado. You won’t believe what I saw. I think it’s a world class venue that is just going to surprise people. I mean, it surprised you, I think.

Lisa: Oh, yeah. I think you’ve accomplished that.

Scott: Yeah.

Lisa: It’s, the only word I could tell everyone afterwards was, wow, you’re not going to believe it.

Scott: That’s the word I heard even from two people this. Well, the gentleman from the California winery that came here yesterday, he and his wife were just touring the area and I said, I’ll give you a little sneak peek of something. He said, sure. And the first word out of his mouth was, wow. And the second word was, wow. And I think the third word was, wow. And it’s just, that. That’s the most descriptive word I can think of that it’s not what people expect. And actually, when you pull up to the Colterris Collections facility, the roof line is such for the front of it that you don’t really think there’s a big building here. It’s deceiving. And when you walk through the door, it kind of takes you by surprise.

Lisa: Yeah.

Scott: And that’s a good thing.

Lisa: Yeah, you definitely pulled that off. Well, I cannot wait to visit after the 23^rd of June.

Scott: There we go.

Lisa: I’ll definitely be here. Can’t wait to check it out.

Scott: All right.

Lisa: Thank you so much for your time.

Scott: Absolutely. Lisa, thank you. We appreciate everything you do for us too. Thank you.

Lisa: Thank you so much.

Lisa: Go be pleasantly surprised by the Colterris Collections at 3708 G Road, then email me at lisa(at)postcardsfrompalisade.com to tell me how many times you said wow – I’m betting it’s going to be at an Owen Wilson level of wow.

The podcast’s theme music is Riverbend by Geoff Roper.

Thanks for listening. With love, from Palisade.

When you bite into a peach or a cherry or any other delicious piece of Palisade produce, can you taste the more than 200 federal regulations and five governmental agencies behind the workers who helped provide that bounty?

Kim Noland, an independent H-2A agent based in Palisade, explains what agents do to help farmers manage the H-2A program and why the program is a critical economic necessity for Palisade. Marvel with us at the bureaucracy, and the people, behind the program while learning more about how it works and about how Palisade has changed over the past 30 years.

Theme Music: Riverbend by Geoff Roper  

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Transcript:

Welcome to the Postcards From Palisade podcast. I’m Lisa McNamara. Palisade is most famous for its peaches, but there’s so much more happening in our little town. Join me as I chat with our community members to hear about how they are making Palisade a great place to live and visit.

When you bite into a peach or a cherry or any other delicious piece of Palisade produce, can you taste the more than 200 federal regulations and five governmental agencies behind the workers who helped provide that bounty?

Today, Kim Noland joins me to share her perspective on the H-2A program in Palisade, based on her work as an independent H-2A agent for farmers here and around the country. Kim manages the entire H-2A process, from employer certification to coordinating workers’ visa applications and arrivals.

Kim’s husband is also a farmer who owns Noland Orchards, which gives Kim a unique perspective on the process and a bushel of stories to share about how Palisade has changed over the past 30 years since she moved here.

Marvel with us at the bureaucracy, and the people, behind the program that is a critical economic necessity to Palisade farmers and foreign workers alike, on today’s Postcard from Palisade.

Lisa: Thank you again for coming in to talk with me. So today I’m talking with Kim Noland, and after I published episode number 40 with Iriana from La Plaza about La Plaza’s work with H-2A workers, Kim actually reached out to me just to let me know that I missed a really big piece of the story. which I really appreciated. So of course I had to have you on and understand a little bit more about what I missed and how everything works.

Kim: And I also listened to the other podcast with, the historical

Lisa: with JoAnn.

Kim: JoAnn. Yeah. And that was very interesting because a lot of that was the historical part of the program. So that was kind of interesting. It just wasn’t a lot about what goes on now.

Lisa: Right. And how. I mean, it does tie together, though, which I found kind fascinating. Sort of like when that story stops, then the H-2A story kind of picks up again.

Kim: It does. Yes. I mean, the history. You know, you guys had kind of talked about that the, Bracero Program was basically the first, step. And that was, like, in 1942. And Bracero basically means a foreign worker. And they did that until 1952. And that’s when they actually. The immigration and nationality act was implemented. And that is what H-2A stands for is it is the code, it is the section under that act. It’s the H-2A section that addresses that visa and what they can do. And so that started back in 1952. And then they did another round of immigration reform in 1986. And they split the H-2 category, it used to be just H-2 and then they split it into H-2A and H-2B. And H-2B, I get a lot of people call me for that. That is pretty much everything that is not agriculture. So H-2A is agriculture. And your business has to be an agricultural business. And the job has to be associated with agriculture. And H-2B would be, construction and those kinds of, and even hotel, you know, restaurants, hotels, stuff like that would all be under H-2B. But the problem with H-2B is the number of visas that the government will issue is capped every year. And H-2A has no cap. So if you put in, any employer can put in for an H-2A visa or get certified. H-2B, you have to put in, but then it goes into a lottery, because they always exceed how many visas are issued. So that’s a tough one.

Lisa: Interesting.

Kim: So I’m an H-2A agent. And basically what that is is I facilitate the application certification process for the farmer, the employer, to actually get certified to actually bring in foreign workers for a temporary period of time. That’s kind of it in a nutshell.

Lisa: Okay. But I’m sure there’s a ton more that goes into it than that.

Kim: There’s a ton. There’s a ton, yeah.

Lisa: So you’re an independent H-2A agent, right. You started your own business?

Kim: I did, I did. We used to. My husband farms. And, he’s used the H-2A program for probably. Oh, my gosh, I don’t know, it’s probably 20 years now, at least. And he had an agent out of Arkansas. And I believe that agent serviced several people around here, several employers used that agent. And he passed away unexpectedly. And my, husband was like, in a panic because it was January and you have to start the process three months before you need the workers. So, he was in a panic and he’s like, do you think you can do this? And my background is in government contracting. I’ve spent my entire career in government contracting. And, I said, well, I’m pretty sure, I’ve worked with so many different government agencies. They’re all like. And I had worked with our agent, so I was giving him a lot of the information for the process. So I just started studying and did our application. And then my husband just started telling everybody, and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, I need to get through one. And it just kind of snowballed from there. And that was about eight years ago.

Lisa: Oh, wow.

Kim: Yeah.

Lisa: Wow. So you really. It wasn’t maybe necessary. It was a matter of necessity at the time that turned into a career.

Kim: It. Yeah. And a lot of, them here, you know, that did use that old agent, panicked because it was the time to start for this area. And it kind of depends, you know, on what you’re farming, when you have to start that process, and when you need your workers to come in.

Lisa: Wow. So now you work with a lot of the different farmers here in the Western Slope?

Kim: I do probably. I have over 50 employers that I work with right now. And, in Palisade, there’s probably over 15 that I do just in Palisade. And then I do quite a bit in Western Colorado, different areas. And I have clients in New Mexico, Idaho, Arkansas, Alabama. It just kind of tends to grow. You really don’t have to be anywhere specific to do the process. It doesn’t matter because it’s all pretty much, doesn’t really matter where the farmer is. The application process is the same.

Lisa: That makes sense. So how does the whole process work? Like, just walk through, so three months before farmers…

Kim: Yeah. So the government’s, program, to apply for the H-2A certification, they have a limited time of when you can apply, and it has to be in between 60 days and 75 days before you need, before your start date. So if you need your workers here May 1^st, you have to start the process in February. And I mean submit the application at that time, because it literally takes three months to go through all the processes. There’s at least four government agencies that you deal with along the way. And, you need all that three months. If there’s any hiccup in the process, you need the three months or you won’t get your guys at that time. They’ll be late. And so actually, to get to the point to submit, you have to start even sooner than that. So usually if I have a new client, if it’s somebody I’ve been doing for a long time. I pretty much have a lot of their information. We just have to update it each year. But if it’s a new client, I usually need two to four weeks to pull all their information together and gather it from them to get the application ready to submit.

Lisa: And the timing, we know, is very, very sensitive.

Kim: It is. And a lot of times I have farmers that are like, well, I’m not sure how many I’m going to need this year. You know, and it’s hard because you kind of have to decide. Because once that contract is certified, you can’t change anything. You can’t change the number of workers. If you decide, oh, I needed five more workers, once it’s certified, you can’t get more. You would have to put a whole new application in. And that’s costly for the farmer.

Lisa: So that’s tough. That’s sort of like a gamble. You just have to guess.

Kim: It is. That’s what farming is, it’s a big gamble. Right, right.

Lisa: The whole process.

Kim: So that process starts like I said, and the first step is you, we submit a job order to the state of Colorado’s foreign labor department. And so they go through the whole job order, make sure everything’s, within the regulations, and then they put that out. Once they approve it, then they put that out to the workforce centers all across the country. And then once they get it approved, then the next step is to actually file the application with the Department of Labor. And, that’s an electronic process. That’s the process that probably takes the longest because it probably takes at least four to six weeks for them to actually certify it. And there’s things that go on during that process. That’s when the workforce center will come out and inspect the housing. And that has to be done every single year, even if you have the same housing. And then they have to do a recruiting effort, the farmer does, because the whole process is to ensure that we don’t displace any domestic workers. So the farmer has to go through a process, if anybody applies for those jobs, because they’re out on a job platform out there, by law they have to interview them or at least consider them if they have the experience. And so we have to submit recruiting reports after that’s done to show the government what they’ve done. And if they had anybody apply.

Lisa: How often do they have people apply?

Kim: Not very often.

Lisa: OK, I’m curious about that because

Kim: Very low. I mean, I have a few employers that might have one or somebody come by. Sometimes they have no, they don’t, they’ve never worked on a farm or something like that. But I would say it’s very low. There’s, there just aren’t the people that want to work on a farm and want to only work for up to 10 months. That’s the longest a contract can be. So it’s difficult.

Lisa: That makes sense. That makes sense. Because they’re also trying to hire somebody within that seasonal range as well.

Kim: And you only have this job for, you know, some employers do a three month contract, some do eight months, some do ten months. But yeah, it’s a temporary job basically every year. So we don’t get very many people, domestic workers that apply. A lot of foreign workers apply because they see it too, because they can get on the Internet.

Lisa: OK. You’re like, not yet!

Kim: I know. And I have a lot of, farmers there are like, oh my gosh, my email is getting inundated with all these emails. I’m like, I know, but they’re all foreign workers and they don’t have an obligation to hire any foreign worker. So after that, after that whole process and the Department of Labor, then we’ll certify the contract, the next step is I have to submit a visa petition to customs and immigration. And that, believe it or not, is a manual process still. They are not electronic, so it’s an actual physical application that has to be filled out and actually have to overnight it to them so that I have proof that it got there. And then that can take them anywhere, it depends on how busy, you know, different seasons are busier than others just because everybody’s farming stuff at different times. And that process can take oh anywhere from two to three weeks maybe sometimes for them to approve the petition. And once that petition is approved, then we can go and find foreign workers and I get them visa appointments. I actually have an agent, a local representative in Monterey because that’s where we bring most of our workers, out of Mexico. And the largest processor of H-2A visas is Monterey consulate. So they go there, I schedule their visa appointments and my agent actually reaches out to the workers, kind of vets them, for the employer, if the employer knows who they want, vets them to make sure that they can actually get a visa. Because if they have any kind of, you know, criminal background or something like that, we don’t want the employer to pay the fee just to find out they’re gonna get denied.

Lisa: Yeah, that makes sense. And yeah, as time is so critical. I’m sure you don’t want to go through that whole process and not only the fee, but the time.

Kim: Yes. And Then the workers and my agent works with them to get them make sure that they get to the consulate on the day that their appointment is. And it’s a three day process they have to go through. So he kind of coordinates that for me with those workers down there and then they travel to the work site. That’s it in a nutshell.

Lisa: Wow, that’s amazing. I mean, I wonder how many hands touch each application.

Kim: You know, to me it’s crazy that the government and none of these agencies, are hooked together. The only thing that probably is, is the state agencies can access the Department of Labor’s certification system. So that’s. We used to have to submit those on paper. I used to have to fill those out and scan them and email them to the state. So we can now put that actually into their system. It’s called FLAG. But those are the only two that are integrated. So it’s a challenge. And just trying to keep track of all the dates and you know, milestones and stuff.

Lisa: That we have to in the process. And yeah, I’m seeing like a huge project plan.

Kim: It is.

Lisa: It seems like a lot of your stuff probably hits at about the same time too, so.

Kim: It does. So my. It’s funny, I always say that my husband’s busy season is my off season and my busy season is this slow season because I get really busy from December to May and then that’s when he starts getting busy is from May through September. So we kind of have October sometimes. Well he hunts so,

Lisa: So maybe December.

Kim: Yeah.

Lisa: No, not even. The first two weeks of December.

Kim: Right.

Lisa: Oh, that’s funny. Okay yeah, so that’s a lot. There’s a lot of steps there. And in theory, like we talked about, farmers could do this themselves.

Kim: Right.

Lisa: So, I think I know the answer, but just for conversation’s sake.

Kim: I mean there are, there are farmers that do do it themselves. But the thing is is trying to stay up on all the regulations which change constantly. That’s one hurdle that they would have to get past. The other thing is the technology part. I mean, I know my husband and you know, he uses a cell phone, but he does not want to spend his time at a computer. I mean they’re out in the field and that’s what they do. They don’t really have time and it is time consuming and it is a process that has to be monitored all through, all through the three months. Those are probably the two biggest reasons they don’t do it themselves.

Lisa: Just like anything where, yeah you could do yourself. But hiring an expert is gonna work a lot better.

Kim: Right.

Lisa: So how many workers do we have? I think you had mentioned we were a little bit, Iriana and I were a little bit low on that number.

Kim: I think I looked it up. I can’t remember. I want to say I think I email that to you.

Lisa: I think you said about 500.

Kim: That’s what I was thinking. It was around 500, yeah.

Lisa: And I think we had. She was like, I think we’re at about 400. So it seems like it’s really rapidly growing.

Kim: It is. Even just since I’ve been in the, you know, in doing this for eight years, it has grown significantly. The H-2A program itself, I think in the last 10 years, I can’t remember what the percentage growth is, but it’s huge. And a lot of that has to do with, I always say that after 9/11, believe it or not, our borders did get stricter because a lot of farmers could. Their workers would just come up and that’s just how it was. They would just show up and they would get across the border. Well, after 9/11, it was very difficult for workers to do that. And so it’s kind of forced a lot of the farmers into the program because they can’t get their workers their old ways.

Lisa: Interesting. So there’s no other option?

Kim: There really isn’t. There really isn’t. Unless you have, you know, a lot of local labor.

Lisa: Right. So as you say, I think everybody says this, H-2A program is critical for Palisade.

Kim: Yeah. I mean, it’s something you can’t live with, but you can’t live without. I mean, the cost to the farmers is a lot. They have to pay me, and then they have to pay application fees, and then they have to pay visa fees and they have to pay my local representative’s fee because he has to run them through. Then they have to also pay for all their travel and per diem and hotel costs to get them from their house to the consulate to here or to their work site. And they also have to send them home and pay for those expenses, if they complete 50% of their contract. So if a worker were to quit, and that happens, sometimes they have personal family issues or health issues and they have to quit for whatever reason. And the farmer doesn’t have to pay their expenses to go home if they don’t complete 50% of that contract.

Lisa: Interesting, makes sense. So, yeah. why is it so critical for Palisade.

Kim: Well, my husband says he can’t farm without it. I mean, there’s just no way, if you don’t have the labor to harvest and even to prune. I do a lot of employers actually do two contracts a year because the way the program is set up, they don’t allow staggered dates of need. So they don’t allow you to get a contract and bring in a few workers early, which a lot of farmers around here, because of trees and having to have them pruned and whatnot. They don’t need a whole crew. They don’t need 20 guys. They might need 10 or, you know, five to prune, and then they need to bump up come harvest. But the program does not allow that. We’ve tried to get that pushed through, and they still have not allowed it. So what they do to get around that is you have to do two contracts. So I have a lot of farmers that will bring in their pruning crews early, and then they augment it with another contract to add to the harvesting.

Lisa: And with the crops that we grow here, with the fruit, grapes, it isn’t something that can be automated, like in. Like a field of a hay. Or something.

Kim: Right. I hear it talked about a lot. But, you know, peaches and those kinds of fruits are just so delicate. I just don’t ever see those ever getting mechanized.

Lisa: Right. But there’s also just a very. Yeah. And there’s a certain amount of skill required when you’re pruning, you know, to know what to prune, how much, where.

Kim: I don’t even know. I look at them and think, how did they know what, you know, what branch to take off? It’s amazing. I mean, these workers that come up here, you know, every year. And a lot of the farmers that I work with, they bring back the same workers every year. They might have to replace one or two or whatever. But the majority of them, I would say, they tell me who they want to bring up. And they’re usually the same group of workers. Like in our, my husband’s farm, his workers are also all very closely related. They’re all related somehow through marriage or nephews or aunts and uncles. And they’re all kind of from the same area. And that’s common with a lot of other farmers, too, because you have these guys that are here for, you know, that many months, and they’re all living together, too. So that’s a challenge.

Lisa: Makes it easier to know somebody.

Kim: Yeah.

Lisa: Or maybe sometimes harder.

Kim: Exactly. I think. Yeah, I’ve heard that too from some of my employers.

Lisa: Right. So, I mean, any of our fruit, any of the crops here, it’s like the thinning of the peaches is something that’s a skill. And then knowing when to harvest and rounds of harvesting. So really, when you just think about the amount of effort that goes into this, it’s like, human effort that’s required.

Kim: Yeah. It’s so labor intense. And there’s just. I just don’t know how, you know, unless you’re a very small farm. But if you’re of any significant, you know, even smaller farms. I do a lot of smaller farms, but they still need that two or three guys or workers, you know, to come in, even though they’re small. I do some that only bring in one worker, so.

Lisa: It makes the difference.

Kim: Yeah.

Lisa: So you mentioned your husband’s farm a little bit. So I think it’s funny you refer to it that way, because whenever there’s, something that, I’m, not interested in having anything to do with, I refer to it as my husband’s whatever.

Kim: Yeah. We kind of keep things separate. I do the books for my husband’s farm, but that’s kind of about it. Our kids helping farm now that they’re older. So, yeah, I kind of like, that’s his business.

Lisa: Ok.

Kim: And then I have my business.

Lisa: I love that.

Kim: That’s why somebody asked me something about fruit. I’m like, oh, don’t ask me. I’m not an expert. I know about H-2A. I said, but I don’t know. Don’t put me out there to farm. That’s for sure. I can only tell you what I’ve seen.

Lisa: I love it. I just thought that was. That’s really funny. So it’s Noland Orchards.

Kim: It is. Yeah. Noland Orchards.

Lisa: And so that’s been, you guys, he has been around for quite a while.

Kim: Yes. So, my husband’s father, purchased the land up there on East Orchard Mesa. I think it was in the 60s, early 60s. He came from a farming background, then went in the military and worked for Aerojet General down in Denver. And so he was trying to find a farm, and he went to go look, I think it was a sheep farm down around Alamosa or something. And he went there, and the guy that was gonna sell it passed away the day that he. Or a day before he went there. So it wasn’t for sale. So I guess he drove around this way and came through here and he bought this peach orchard. And it was real small. And that was before Glenwood Canyon was, it was a lot smaller. It took a long time to get from Denver to Glenwood. And my husband said that him and his dad would come and mom would come up and farm every weekend until they actually moved here. I could not imagine that.

Lisa: From Denver?

Kim: From Denver, every weekend. They’d leave Friday and come back Sunday. Yeah.

Lisa: Wow. And they were. I think they were local legends. I didn’t.

Kim: Yeah.

Lisa: Get to meet them at all.

Kim: Yeah, a lot of people. My father in law passed away about five years ago. But, yeah, he was just. He was big in the Lions Club and he just. Everybody loved him. He was a great guy.

Lisa: So, on your farm do you bring in H-22A workers to help?

Kim: We do. We bring in 26.

Lisa: I think that was a dumb question because that is what we started with talking about.

Kim: That’s okay.

Lisa: That’s how you got into this. Okay. 26.

Kim: So yeah, we bring in 26 workers. Yeah. And we bring them in from the beginning of May to the beginning of September. So our workers just got here a couple weeks ago.

Lisa: Okay. And so have you had the same people who’ve come back year after year? Have you gotten to know some people over the years?

Kim: Pretty much, yeah. Like I said, they’re all sort of related. And in fact we just had one of our workers had worked for the farm, I want to say 40 plus years. He was old and older, I should say. And I think it was two years ago, he told my husband, I’m, not gonna be back. And he said he was crying. It was right when they were leaving. It was so, so cute. And he was like, I’m just getting old and you know this gonna be my last year. But then he kept coming and he came up this year, but he got sick and they told him that he had cancer.

Lisa: Gosh, it’s just such a big part of your life. 40 years.

Kim: Yeah. We had to send him home.

Lisa: I’m sorry.

Kim: Yeah. So it was hard for my husband because he’s literally worked with this guy ever since he was a kid.

Lisa: Wow.

Kim: Yeah. So.

Lisa: Yeah. That’s amazing.

Kim: That, like I said, that just happened. We just sent him home last week, so.

Lisa: Yeah, it’s sweet that he kept coming back though.

Kim: I know. I just thought that was so funny because he’s like, I’m gonna leave. This is my last year. And then he came back for three more years because he wanted to do it, he wanted to, he enjoyed it. And you know, they don’t, they make a lot of money for a short period of time and it’s really important for them and their families back there. A lot of them that come up here also farm back there. They have their own little farms.

Lisa: So what are some of the other stories that have really resonated with you just from people that you’ve met over the years?

Kim: I mean H-2A stories, I probably have 5 million of them. I’ve probably heard it all. But, yeah, it’s funny just dealing with different, you know, farmers are kind of funny. They’re kind of a different breed, you know, and, they don’t like all these regulations, which I don’t either, but, you know, it’s hard to kind of keep them under control because it’s like, I know, but this is what has to be done or you have to provide this to get certified. And so it’s funny, I mean, I have a lot of conversations with farmers that, and I know a lot of them that I’ve known them over years. So, they’re real openly honest and blunt about what they don’t like. And it’s just kind of funny. I kind of know each of their quirks and some of them don’t want any email, they don’t want to text, they want a phone call. Some want to see you in person. So I kind of know every farmer is a little different. You know, how they want to get their work done, and I kind of accommodate that. I don’t know if you went to a big agency if they would do that, but I kind of know how they are and I know which ones want their stuff a certain way, you know, or want the communication a certain way. So I always find that funny. And I noticed the younger farmers now that I’m kind of getting some younger farmers. And they’re all into, you know, the texting. And they’ll be texting me, you know, 24/7 on the weekends and everything. So there is one good thing about not texting or calling. But those, those situations are always kind of interesting. Getting to know all these farmers and their little quirks.

Lisa: I love it. Yeah. And then you just give that personal touch.

Kim: Yeah.

Lisa: How about some of the workers? Are there any stories you’ve heard or anybody that you’ve heard back?

Kim: I probably have one little funny story. I had two new employers. One last year, two now, both in Idaho. And they wanted their workers from Nicaragua. And I was like, well, okay, they knew who they were. I think they have a like vacation home there or something, these farmers do. And so they knew these workers because they work on their house there. But that was really a challenge because I don’t have someone in Nicaragua that can show these guys who have never been out of the country how to go get a passport, how to go the consulate, how to go get a picture for your visa that you have to bring to the consulate, all this stuff. I was contemplating making a trip to Managua and running these guys through myself because I was so panicked about how am I going to do that. And I told the employer straight up, I said, I’ve never gotten anybody from there. I said, but you know, if you can help, we can maybe figure this out. But I actually ended up, my agent in Monterey actually helped me out. And it’s funny because even though they both speak Spanish, the dialect is very different. So he said he, it was a big challenge getting over that dialect difference. But he was instrumental in helping me get with those guys and get them through the consulate because he has first hand knowledge of exactly what happens and how they have to go through and what they need to do. So that was interesting. I feel a little more comfortable now, but when first started out,

Lisa: So it worked?

Kim: It did work. Yeah, I got, yeah, I got two guys in last year and then four guys this year for two different farmers up there in Idaho.

Lisa: Wow. Yeah. You didn’t have a lot of time to figure that out, I’m sure. Same situation where it’s like, okay.

Kim: Yeah but you know, the Internet and technology is wonderful. And so, you know, years ago I just don’t know how you would do it. But with WhatsApp and everything, everybody around the world uses that. And, you know, you can translate and speak to people. So it’s funny how technology has made it so much easier to communicate with people.

Lisa: Right? Drastically. So you don’t speak Spanish?

Kim: Very little. Very little. I can read it a lot better than I can speak it because I email with my agent in Spanish. And so I can read it if I see something, I know what it says.

Lisa: Yeah.

Kim: But if I have to speak it, yeah, I’m no good.

Lisa: I’m the same. I’ve tried!

Kim: I’ve taken lessons. I took lessons after I started doing this, and it helped a little. But you really have to be immersed in it and speaking it every day.

Lisa: Yeah, totally.

Kim: My husband speaks Spanish. He’ll tell you he doesn’t. He says, I just speak peach Spanish. I said, okay. And then he’s out there talking to them. Or if we go to Mexico, he talks to them. I’m like, I thought you didn’t know Spanish? He does.

Lisa: That’s nice, though. Yeah, I know, like, restaurant Spanish.

Kim: Yeah, exactly.

Lisa: How to get to the bathroom, how to order.

Kim: Exactly.

Lisa: Food and drinks. That’s about it.

Kim: Right, yeah.

Lisa: That’s funny. That’s. That’s really interesting. An interesting challenge. So you mostly work with people from Mexico, then?

Kim: Primarily, yeah. I’ve brought in workers from Honduras before, but mainly Mexico. Just for one thing, it’s cheaper for the employers, just logistically, to get them here. I do have a new employer down in Montrose that this is his first year in H-2A, but he’s actually got another place I think, that he’s looking to buy in Oregon. But he’s talking about bringing people in from South Africa, I think, because they have a lot of greenhouse experience or something. So we’ll see how that goes.

Lisa: Yeah. Well, that could be a fun trip. Go to wine country in South Africa.

Kim: Yeah. It’s funny. Once they. Once these farmers get their workers, I usually don’t hear from them. I don’t hear from them unless there’s a problem. And usually the problem is, how do I get rid of this worker? Or, you know, what do I do? This guy lost his passport. Or, you know, they’re stories like that. Otherwise, if everything’s going good, I don’t hear from that farmer until I contact them, the next year to say, hey, do you need to start the process again? If everything’s going great, I don’t hear from them. Usually if I do, there’s an issue, and it’s usually has something to do with the worker. Yeah. Or they’re, you know, getting audited or something, and they don’t have their paperwork or they misplaced it or they want my advice on some of that.

Lisa: How often do people get audited? Is it regular?

Kim: Well, the government, so there’s several different kinds of audits. The Department of Labor, the foreign labor certification that handles the H-2A program, they can do a desk audit up to three years after, the contract. And that’s just. They will send you, you know, an email or you’ll get it in the mail and it says, we want, you know, provide us information on all this, whether it’s payroll records or whatever. Those aren’t very, you know, they’re not difficult. And then they submit that and you can get a response. And sometimes they’ll say, oh, you know, this is out of compliance. And they’ll just be like, correct that. You know, if it happened multiple times, you’d probably get fined. The bigger audit that most of the farmers hate and are scared to death of is the FSLA audit, which is just the Department of Labor that any employer can get audited. And that’s wage and hour division. And they’ll usually send a team over. Say for here, they’d send it over from Denver, and they just show up unannounced. And they can cover everything that has to do with wage and hour laws and all your H-2A regulations all at once. And, I think they were here. I don’t know if they came last year or the year before, but they didn’t hit many, too many farmers that year. It just, it just, you know, it’s just kind of a crap shoot. You don’t know when it’s going to happen. But that’s the scariest one. And they’ll do all the OSHA field stuff too, so they’re pretty, intense. When they’re in town, usually all the farmers are calling each other hey, department of labor is and town, warning everybody. Yeah.

Lisa: And that just highlights how important the record keeping is.

Kim: Right, right.

Lisa: to be able to have all that at your fingertips.

Kim: Right. And that’s just all. That’s all in addition to all the H-2A regulations, it’s just all the employment laws, that they’ll cover.

Lisa: Well, that’s stressful.

Kim: Yeah, it is. I think the worst part is, I think the worst part is having them show up unannounced, you know, because when you’re not prepared, you know, at least if you know they’re going to show up, you can kind of get your stuff together and be ready for it. And they can basically take a worker and they take them aside and they will ask them questions. And you cannot even be part of that discussion. So you have to make sure your workers, you know that everything that you’re doing, everything you’re supposed to, legally. Because if they ask them a question, they’re going to probably be honest, I would assume, and just answer the question, like, oh, are you getting breaks? You know, or now there’s heat laws, you know, there’s a lot of different agricultural laws that went into effect the last couple years in Colorado. So that are different from federal laws. So. Yeah. Over time for Colorado, agriculture went into effect. They phased it in three years ago. But federally, agriculture is exempt from premium overtime. But Colorado changed their laws three years ago, kind of following California. Unfortunately, Colorado tends to do that. And so now that’s really a burden on employers. Because if you have to pay premium overtime on agricultural labor, that’s a huge expense.

Lisa: Yeah.

Kim: Huge. And the thing is, is you don’t know. I mean, sometimes, you know, guys won’t have to work a full day in the spring. There’s not enough work. But then during harvest, if you have a lot more fruit maybe than what you estimated, they’re gonna be really working a lot of hours.

Lisa: Right, yeah. That’s just another piece that’s really hard to estimate. And again, yeah, it sort of goes hand in hand with what farming is. It’s just a whole big rush.

Kim: It is, it is, it is. It’s funny though, I used to think that when I married my husband and then I was like, well, you know, CPAs go through that. They have their crunch, you know, at tax time. And there’s a lot of professions that are like that where you have that big crunch where you’re working a lot for several months.

Lisa: So I know that a hot topic is always, well, what do you think is going to happen in the future?

Kim: Right.

Lisa: No one can predict what’s happening in the future. But do you see anything changing or staying the same?

Kim: You know. I. There’s some grumblings. I think there’s a proposal to revise the H-2A program again. They just did that a few years ago, but trying to make it so that it’s more of a system where they could just bring the workers in and they don’t have to be, I think what it is is the worker gets kind of certified and then they can come and work for up to three years at various employers without having each employer doing these separate certifications. Because a lot of H-2A workers do not so much maybe here, but a lot of H-2A workers jump from employer to employer, so they follow the crops. So if they were working here, then maybe they go and harvest something else in Minnesota or somewhere there that harvest later. A lot of workers do that and they can have H-2A visas, but they have to be transferred over to the other contract, which is kind of a complicated process and it costs the employer, too, to do that. But they’re already here, so they don’t have to go back and get another H-2 visa. But, they can do that continually and be in the United States for up to three years on, H-2A visa, but then they have to exit the country for a certain amount of months and then come back. So they’re trying to simplify it a little bit more. I think it’d be great if something like that would happen, but I have my doubts that it will. I had a lot of, employers that were very concerned after the election. They called me. What’s going to happen, you know, are we going to have a hard time getting our guys? And I said. I said, I do not believe so. Because when Trump was in office, during Covid, and it’s interesting, but a lot of people don’t know that that is the only visa that you could enter into the country at that time. That was the only visa that he, you know, made an exception. That H-2A visas were the only visas that somebody could get in when everything was closed down, when the borders were closed. And, I mean, it had to be, because if we didn’t have workers, we wouldn’t have food.

Lisa: No. Food would just be rotting the fields and yeah.

Kim: So I just always felt confident that, you know, it’s. He’s not gonna. He actually uses the H-2A contract. I think he has a vineyard up in northern New York.

Lisa: Yeah. So the essential nature of it should be well understood by everybody.

Kim: Right. Right.

Lisa: Yeah. Interesting. I’m curious about just you personally, like, what brought you to Palisade and what keeps you here or has kept you here.

Kim: Well, my husband brought me here. I did not plan on that. I just happened to meet him through my best friend that had moved here. And I came up and I told her, the last thing I want to do is meet somebody. I lived in Golden. I don’t want to meet somebody 225 miles from me. And next thing you knew, that’s how I came here. And, like I said, I was in government contracting for environmental firms pretty much my whole career. And back then, this was 30 years ago, we had our vice president of the company that I worked for was really computer literate. And he’s like, oh, I think you could work, you know, and I could get you hooked up into our computers. I mean, nobody knew about this. I was, ans this was still dial up, let me remind you. And, it worked out. And I would go spend. I could work remotely here. I worked remote before that was even a thing. I never even told anybody that I dealt with that I was working from my house. Cause they would think that’s crazy. And I would work here three weeks and then I’d go back down to Golden and spend one week in the office there. And I did that for, quite a few years. And then I, started working for another environmental firm that I’m kind of a very small part owner of. And that firm is all remote. Everybody’s remote and that. So that’s kind of how I ended up here.

Lisa: So you might have been one of the first remote workers.

Kim: I pretty much think I am. Because when Covid happened, first of all, our company, the company I worked for, we were all remote. And, it didn’t even change anything for us. We didn’t miss a beat because it was like. Well, it was just like normal.

Lisa: My husband and I were both remote too. Before at the time, it was like. Well, everybody was struggling with it and we’re like, we already adapted to this.

Kim: Yeah, it’s. Yeah. So, yeah, I think definitely when I did it 30 years ago, I’m sure I was like one of the only people that was working remote. Having to upload things on dial up was a challenge.

Lisa: Yeah. So what has changed in Palisade in the past 30 years since you’ve been here?

Kim: Oh my gosh. Here it’s changed a lot. We used to laugh because we used to say that Palisade, you know, rolled up the sidewalks at five, six o’clock at night because there was nothing. I mean, there just was nothing down here. I mean, we had no restaurants per se. Where 357 is, there was a cafe there. And there was actually a cafe, down where the Mexican place is now. And that was just a breakfast cafe. And then over at 357, a couple different owners went through that, but they weren’t ever open very long. And the grocery store, the front used to face this way and it was real tiny. And I used to say you’d have to go in there and blow the dust off of the cans if you wanted to go in there. Now, it’s great. I mean, they carry so much good stuff now. I go in there a lot, so. So, yeah, it’s definitely for the better. I know a lot of people complain about people moving here and stuff, but it’s like you can’t. I feel like a town, to stay viable, you have to grow. You have to grow somehow. Now I think Palisade’s done a good job at limiting and managing that growth. But I still think you have to grow to survive. Because my dad came from a small town and I’ve seen those effects are just not good.

Lisa: No, no. Like change is inevitable. I grew up in a really small town too and it’s gone the opposite way.

Kim: oh really?

Lisa: The elementary school closed and now, it’s just like, well, this is done for.

Kim: It like that’s how the town that my dad grew up in in southeastern Colorado, it’s just almost like a ghost town. The only thing that keeps it going is it’s a county seat. So the courthouse is there. But when I was down there last, all the main, street windows were boarded up. You know, there’s people there, but there’s just not. There’s no new businesses or industry. So I think, I think Palisade’s done a good job.

Lisa: Yeah. It’s a struggle but I think what’s helpful is they’re thoughtful about it. They really do seem to be.

Kim: Yeah.

Lisa: Just debating how to keep what people want in place and balance everything.

Kim: Right. Which is a challenge. Yeah, it’s a challenge. It’s funny because I do hear some people complain about people moving in, but I’m like, well, you got it. You came here. It’s funny. I’m like, it’s okay when you moved here. I don’t hear that as much from people that have been around here forever, but it’s been great. I think everything that’s here now is awesome. I mean you can. We don’t go into town, we used to call it into town, into Grand Junction, you know, to eat as much because we can just go here.

Lisa: Yeah.

Kim: And we have choices. That’s good. And then just all the activities now are great. Yeah, yeah. It’s been good.

Lisa: Thank you so much for you speaking to me. I think this is really helpful and definitely a critical piece just to understand better how everything fits together and works here.

Kim: Right, right.

Lisa: So I appreciate that.

Kim: It’s a big. I mean they’re a big impact on the community and I mean everybody just relies on them so much. You know, I know a lot of farmers, they get so excited when their workers are coming. Their workers are going to be here. Yeah. So, yeah, it’s part of the community for sure.

Lisa: Yep. Absolutely. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Kim.

Kim: You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.

Lisa: Of course.

Kim: I just. I know there’s just a lot of people like I said I listen to your podcast all the time, and, when they first come, I’m always telling people, did you know there’s a Palisade podcast? Because there’s so many businesses that I did not even know of. I mean, that you’ve interviewed. And I’m like, oh, I didn’t know that was here. I didn’t know that person does that here, you know, so it was interesting. I’ve been here 30 years and I didn’t know of some of these, so it’s. Yeah, it’s interesting. I’ve learned a lot. And I think that’s same thing with H-2A. I don’t think a lot of people. People understand, the whole process that’s involved with it.

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. Because if you don’t look closely, if you’re not kind of around and seeing what’s happening, it would be easy to miss.

Kim: Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa: I so appreciated hearing from Kim that she had more context that would help better explain the H-2A program’s importance to Palisade. If you ever hear anything on the podcast that you think I didn’t get quite right, or an important detail I missed, or if you just have a good, related story to tell, let me know! You can always reach me at lisa(at)postcardsfrompalisade.com.

The podcast’s theme music is Riverbend by Geoff Roper.

Thanks for listening. With love, from Palisade.

Go behind the scenes at Colorado’s largest wine producer, Carboy Winery. Barbie Graham, tasting room manager at Carboy Winery at Mount Garfield Estates in Palisade and sales and hospitality manager for the company globally, joins me to chat about how Carboy is making wine delicious, fun, and sustainable.

Barbie and I also chat about why she’d rather live in Colorado than California, how she was cured of wine snobbery and how she tries to pass that gift along, and about the variety of events Carboy hosts at their Mount Garfield Estates location.

Theme Music: Riverbend by Geoff Roper

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Transcript:

Welcome to the Postcards From Palisade podcast. I’m Lisa McNamara. Palisade is most famous for its peaches, but there’s so much more happening in our little town. Join me as I chat with our community members to hear about how they are making Palisade a great place to live and visit.

Today we’re going behind the scenes at Colorado’s largest wine producer, Carboy Winery. Carboy Winery has four locations, including (obviously) the best one, in Palisade. Barbie Graham, tasting room manager at Carboy Winery at Mount Garfield Estates in Palisade and sales and hospitality manager for the company globally, joins me to chat about how Carboy is making wine delicious, fun, and sustainable.

Barbie and I also chat about why she’d rather live and work in Colorado than California, how she was cured of wine snobbery and how she tries to pass along that gift to others, about the variety of events Carboy hosts at their Palisade location, and lots more.

I spoke with Barbie right before the May 24^th Bubbles and Blues kickoff of the Carboy Concert Series, so if you didn’t get to that show, you missed out, but there are still three more shows upcoming, one in June and two in October. You can find more info about those shows and buy tickets at https://www.carboywinery.com/event-calendar/happenings.

Stay tuned for a fun dive into a tank of Colorado wine on today’s Postcard from Palisade.

Lisa: Thank you again so much for coming in and speaking with me today.

Barbie: Of course. So my name is Barbie Graham. I am the tasting room manager at the Palisade location of Carboy winery. I’m also the sales and hospitality manager for the company globally.

Lisa: Oh, wow. Okay. So you do two jobs? At least.

Barbie: Yeah, at least two jobs. Yeah. We wear a lot of different hats in this industry in general, you know.

Lisa: Yeah. So tell me about your background. How did you get into the industry and what brought you to Carboy?

Barbie: So I’ve been working in food and beverage for over 20 years. I started out, like, working as a hostess in restaurants when I was like, 13, and then just kind of stuck with it. Got me through college, got me through graduate school, and then I ended up wanting to stay with it. I didn’t I initially thought I wanted to go into academia. And then after finishing school, realized that was not what I wanted to do. So then I started diving more into the wine side of things. Got my quartermaster sommelier certified sommelier, and then wset level three and was doing some stuff on the floor and up working as a buyer for some prominent wine programs. And then I managed Bin 707 Food Bar for several years. And then I moved back To California, which is where I’m from. And I was doing some consulting. And while I was out there, the Carboy team called me and asked me if I wanted to move back to Colorado and manage the Palisade location. I peripherally have known Tyzok, our lead winemaker, for a really long time. He also lived in California while I was out there and would come into places that I worked at. And then I met their whole investment team while I was working at Bin 707. They were scouting properties and they came in several times, and one of their investors kind of threw my name into the hat when they were looking for a new manager. And it was like, it was just divine timing. Like, it worked out perfectly. If they had called me a week earlier, I would have been so swamped with my consulting gig that I would not have answered. If they’d called me a week later, I would have already signed the contract for my next consulting project. And so it was just, like, the right timing. And I got out here in, like, two weeks from when they called me and just dove right in.

Lisa: Wow, that’s really cool. And. And, yeah, just the thing about, kind of timing and how it works out in your life is sometimes so interesting.

Barbie: Yeah, I didn’t really, it was definitely not in my plan to move back to Colorado at the time. I was really happy with what I was doing in California, and my ex, who I was with, wanted to stay in California, but it was just too good to be true. And when I came out here and I saw the production facility that they built at Palisade, that was really, like, pushed me to want to do it, because their sparkling wine production facility is an investment not just in Carboy, but, like, in the entire AVA, wine country out here. And I love this region. And I was like, oh, I want to be a part of this. This is, like, really cool what they’re doing, so I’m really glad I came back.

Lisa: You already touched on this a little bit already, but what makes Carboy Winery unique?

Barbie: I mean, it’s, for me, there’s so many things that make it unique. I think one of the things that really drew me towards it is I love this area. I love the Grand Valley. I love Grand Junction, I love Palisade. And same with. When I was at Bin 707 working for Josh Niernberg, he really had like a lot of vision of what he sees this whole area moving towards and kind of changing the cultural landscape. And I feel like Carboy embraces that on a statewide level of trying to like, Colorado’s like a beer state. I feel like Carboy’s trying to make people see it as a wine state. And that’s something I really appreciate, especially coming from, I was born and raised in Santa Barbara, California, and I lived in the Bay Area for a long time before I came out here. And I’ve seen firsthand how much wine country and food and beverage can shape the culture of a place and create like long lasting, sustainable economy and jobs. And it’s tourism, but it’s, it’s different than just like coming through and taking a picture. It’s like people want to stay for multiple days. They want to come and hang out. And it’s craft, you know, and wine in general is like art, science, craft, farming, agriculture, all these things combined. I think Carboy, they just, they have a really unique business methodology as well as investment in the area out here. So they started as negotiants and were purchasing grapes. And their Littleton location was the first location. They were restaurateurs, which also kind of speaks to me because I come from the restaurant background. And then they expanded to Breckenridge and Denver. And then were looking to purchase vines in Palisade. And I remember working at Bin 707. You know, I already knew a lot of the winemakers out here, a lot of people growing grapes out here through our wine program there. And people were like a little afraid of Carboy coming to town. They were like, oh, they’re the big boys. They’re gonna buy all the grapes. We’re not gonna be able to like, you know, we’re not gonna able to have a hold on it. Which is kind of ironic because comparative to like a California winery, we’re very, very micro or tiny.

Lisa: For Colorado, though, it’s big.

Barbie: For Colorado, we are the biggest winery in Colorado. You kind of have to have some gumption to like, be the big boys and to be the ones that are like, we’re gonna be the biggest and we’re also gonna be the best. We’re not trying to be watered down product or something that’s like not high quality. Like, the goal is to be the first wine that people taste that’s a Colorado wine, so that when people try it, it’s really good. And that motivates them to come out to wine country, go to all the other wineries, spend their money at places that don’t have the same ability to market and the same diversified business perspective that Carboy has. And I think that’s really cool. And then when I saw, like I said, when I saw the production facility, that really just blew my mind because I had been to that Mount Garfield Estates location when it was Mount Garfield Winery. And you know, they didn’t have the patio, they didn’t have the vines, they didn’t have the production facility. It was very minimal compared to what it is now. So just seeing the investment was already I was like, wow, this is. They’re really like putting their money where their mouth is. But the production facility is the biggest Charmat sparkling wine production facility in the US, outside of California, which is awesome. And it really speaks to our terrior out here. Like, we know we can reliably grow a lot of new world cultivars, right? Hybrid grapes, modern varieties. And modern variety grapes tend to produce high acidity, very perfumey wine, which may not be stellar if you’re going for a single varietal still wine. It could be. We do some like that that are really good, but it’s excellent for sparkling wine base because the way the sparkling wine is made, you want that initial fermentation to be like in the 10 to 11% alcohol range and high acidity because you’re adding in another fermentation to that. And perfumyness works really well in bubbly wine. So it’s like speaking to what does well here and what grows well here. And I think that for me is really cool because I think one of the things that’s challenging about the wine industry is that it is so bound by tradition that it can often be exclusivist. And to be in a place in a region where we can afford to be experimental. Right. We’re not Napa, where everyone’s like, where’s my 16% Cabernet Sauvignon? Like, we can produce whatever wine we want. And people are just so shocked to find out that we have wine here, that they’re willing to give it a try. And so to then say, okay, how can we do this in a way that works with the environment that we have? It’s very a unique AVA. We have very different benefits and challenges to places like California as far as, like, how we grow grapes. And to say, okay, like, how can we fit our production into what works out here? Let’s build a sparkling wine facility. Like, I was just. My mind was blown. And then to do that, we also have a bottling line where we. You have to have a specific type of line to counter pressure the bottles when you have bubbles already in the wine. And the facility is big enough to where we can produce sparkling wine for other people, we can make way more wine than we can sell. Which affords us the opportunity to help our friends and neighbors here who do not have the capital to invest in building a facility like that. And that’s amazing. Like, if people want to do high quality sparkling wine, we can do that for them. And we can charge them less than you would be able to buy bulk bottles from California, which is, I think a lot of people think of wine, like, if it has your label on it, that means you made it. That is far from the case. Most people are purchasing wine that’s already made and putting their label on it for things like bubbly. But we can do it with their fruit, which is, I don’t know which just so cool. Like, it’s so awesome. And then also, I think wine is a wasteful industry. And it’s also an industry of indulgence. Right. Like, it’s not the kind of thing. Nobody needs wine. I mean, I need wine, my soul needs wine.

Lisa: We can live without it. Like maybe we wouldn’t enjoy life without it, but you can be alive.

Barbie: Yeah. And, like, the, you know, the climate has changed a lot since I got into the industry, and a lot of new challenges are presented by that. And I think Carboy is, like, really walking the talk when it comes to sustainability and when it comes to, like, how can we make wine in a way that benefits and doesn’t detract from all the things everybody in Colorado cares about. Right. We love the outdoors. We love wild spaces. We want to keep the water sources going. Like we have all these things that we care about that if you’re in an industry that’s waste based, it’s kind of challenging. And so, you know, they’re 1% for the Planet members. They are members of Zero Food Print, which takes 1% added to every tasting room check and donates it to this nonprofit that supplies compost to farms. So we’ve like helped hundreds of farms get compost. Even some of our other partner wineries in Colorado get compost. We have a project with Protect our Rivers doing a wine for them, which they do a lot of cleanup, especially on the South Platte near our Littleton location. And then we have a lot of sustainability measures in the vineyard. We have cover crop that imparts nitrogen phosphorus in the soil. It keeps the soil a lot cooler and retains the water in it. We have micro spray irrigation. So we only water the vines for like five hours every like two to three weeks.

Lisa: Oh, wow.

Barbie: Isn’t that mind blowing?

Lisa: That is mind blowing.

Barbie: Yeah.

Lisa: I thought you were gonna say five hours every day.

Barbie: Yeah, that’s what I mean. From like at my house, I much I have to irrigate. It’s like crazy that that’s how little we have to water. And I mean that is, you know, you do want grapes to be like a little stressed. Like you want them to have to reach their vines way down to pull up all those mineral content from the soil. But it’s just really impressive to me how little they have to do. And we are not organically certified but we use organic inputs in the field, which is awesome. And then we also have like our tap wine program. So most of the carbon footprint from wine, like more than 50% of the carbon footprint from wine is from the manufacturing and shipping of bottles. The glass weighs as much as the wine inside of it. And you can’t like sanitize, like reuse glass. You can do that for liquor and beer, but for some reason in wine that’s against the law. Some crazy glass lobbyists must have really pushed for that. So we have a tap wine program. All of our locations have glycol chilled Brite tanks. We feed them with argon so that it prevents them from getting oxidized. And then we ship the wine in totes out to each location so we don’t have to manufacture and ship all these bottles. So we’ve saved over a million bottles from production by doing that. And we have growler programs. You can like fill your growler up and bring the growler back and it’s like, I don’t know, it’s really cool. I’ve never, I’ve never been to any other winery that does something like that.

Lisa: No.

Barbie: Yeah, it’s really cool to be a part of it.

Lisa: And I remember back when Carboy started in the Front Range, you know, about 10ish years ago or so.

Barbie: Yeah, almost nine years ago. Yeah, 2016.

Lisa: Nine years ago. And it was really revolutionary to have a high quality wine served on tap out of a keg.

Barbie: Yeah.

Lisa: You know, a refillable keg. that was just. And to be able to buy wine in a refillable growler. That was such a new concept at the time and everybody was talking about it. And I think now it’s maybe become a little bit more. It’s been long enough and you’ve proven the success of that method and the fact that you can have high quality wine like that. Maybe it’s less, maybe it’s less revolutionary or wild now. But do you still deal with any like wine snobbery from people about, you know, if you’re pouring them a wine out of the tap versus a bottle?

Barbie: Yes.

Lisa: Do you still get that and then how do you deal with that?

Barbie: We definitely do. There will always like wine is a. It invites snobs. You know, it rewards snobbery. And I think also part of wine is status. And so people want the status of a 750 milliliter bottle with a real cork in it. And so part of it is talking about. I was just share, like you know, one of the reasons we did this is because Craig Jones, he like got growlers wine off tap in Italy. He was like, oh this is so cool. Like he’s our main investor and he’s amazing. He does so much for the company. And so that was something that he brought back. And so it is not an American-born idea or a value based product born idea. It is a craft high quality product idea. And then I always, always just take people back and show them what the wine lives in when it’s on tap. Because I think a lot of people are expecting like a sixtel keg like you, you know like you’d see like your house.

Lisa: Yeah, a dirty old keg.

Barbie: But we have like 225 gallon Brite tanks and they’re chilled with glycol and fed with argon, which means you know, if you open a bottle of wine, whether you’re at your house or in a restaurant or in a tasting room, and you just put the cork in that and then put it in the fridge or leave it on the counter, two, three days go by, that wine’s gonna be oxidized. It’s not gonna taste the same as it did when you opened it. Off the tap, other than the little amount that’s in the line, which is exposed to oxygen, which we just pour off at the beginning of each shift, so that we just pour it and dump it, everything is completely untouched. So the wine at the top of that tank is gonna taste the same as the wine at the bottom of that tank. And then when you talk about the sustainability impact of it, most people, you know, all of us, we are so detached from the products that we enjoy. Like, we just don’t know what goes into it. And when you, when you start to realize, like oh, wait, the glass weighs the same as, if not more than the wine inside of it. And we’re putting stuff on trucks and shipping it, like, that’s a massive carbon impact. And if we’re gonna be able to continue to drink wine, you know, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now, we all collectively in the industry and as consumers have to start making shifts to wine that is more sustainable, because the more carbon the atmosphere, the hotter the atmosphere gets. The hotter the atmosphere gets, the more challenging it is to grow wine. And we really see that in this area, it is so hot here, we have much less annual precipitation and much higher temperatures than we did like 20 years ago. And so, you know, when you’re sitting outside and it’s 105 degrees, you’re like, see, it’s hot out. Don’t you want to help the planet?

Lisa: Exactly.

Barbie: And then also just letting people taste. I always think, especially in Colorado, you really have to let your palate speak. Because I know as a wine buyer for some high profile wine programs in California, I probably would not have taken a tasting of Colorado wine or of new world cultivars. I would’ve been like, I don’t wanna taste hybrids and I’m not trying anything in Colorado. Because I was a wine snob and because I was in this culture that has a very limited perspective of, like, where good wine comes from. And that’s typical of, you know, the premier wine regions in the United States and the world over. But when you actually taste it, you’re like, oh, this is really good. Then you’re like, yeah, believe it or not, like, this is Traminette. You’ve never heard of it, right? You’re like, why is this so good? Like’s you really. I think that’s like the fun of modern wine and of regional wine and of accessibility in wine. Like getting wine out of this, like, you know, old white person category that it’s always been in and like opening it up, I mean, like, it doesn’t have to be super expensive. It doesn’t have to be like some fancy pinkie up thing. You can drink it out of any glass that you want to drink it out of. And just like, if it tastes good, drink it. Like, if you like it, drink it. But it is a challenge.

Lisa: So you’re a recovered wine snob?

Barbie: I’m totally a recovered wine snob, yes.

Lisa: That’s awesome. That kind of leads into, I think one of the interviews, one of the things that you said was that Carboy’s mission is to open wine up to the widest audience that you could or that you can.

Barbie: Yes, absolutely.

Lisa: So how do you do that? How do you make it appealing to more than just the old wine snobs?

Barbie: I mean, I think first of all, the level of hospitality that you get when you walk into our tasting room. Like, you know, in my experience in wine, there’s a lot of places you go in and everyone kind of fits that same generic category. You walk into our taste room and like, people have tattoos. We’ve got different colors of hair, we’ve got piercings, we’ve got like, this is not a place where you have to fit a certain mold to work with us. And it’s also just being really welcoming and recognizing that, especially out here in Palisade, and this is different at every location because our locations are all in different neighborhoods. We have different demographics that go in. But in Palisade, this is a wine region where a lot of people, we are the first winery that people have ever been to before. Like, they’re coming out here on a bachelorette trip and they’re 22 and they’ve never had wine. And like, I had someone say, oh, I don’t really ever drink wine. And I was like, oh, what do you like to drink? She was like, well, I love champagne. And I was like, well, you might not know this, but like, champagne’s actually wine, like, it’s like, that’s a lot of the level of people that we’re interacting with. And so just being like super nonjudgmental and like, you don’t have to know anything about wine to enjoy it. And recognizing that no one walks into a brewery and is like, oh my god, I really wish I knew more about beer. Like, that’s literally how people feel when they walk into a winery. They already feel like, ashamed of their lack of knowledge before they even get up to the counter. And so just being super recognizing of that. I mean, like, no, like this is a place where you can just taste whatever you want, enjoy yourself. And then I think also creating experiences besides just wine. Right? Because if you’re like, okay, I’m gonna go listen to a band, or I’m gonna go do a paint and sip class, or I’m gonna go to yoga, like, then you can get in without that feeling of like, oh, I’m gonna be you know asked what I taste in this wine. Like I’m gonna be judged for my knowledge or lack thereof. It’s like, if you’re going for a full experience, then it makes a little easier. Like there’s not as much of a barrier of entry. Or you can just drink a wine slushie.

Lisa: Yeah, right.

Barbie: There’s always that.

Lisa: Yeah. Like the events are not all centered around wine. It’s wine is sort of the side benefit of doing this thing.

Barbie: And that’s like, I think especially that was the other thing, other than being so impressed with the production facility when I came out here, that really stood out to me is just the space at the Palisade location is, I mean, it’s first of all it’s stunningly gorgeous. Like, it’s hard to even conceive of a more beautiful space to show up to work. It’s like gorgeous views and just, it’s just stunning. And then also this space, it’s like, it’s a venue, you know. And when I first started with the company, they were really new to this location. They were just over their second year there. Or no, just over their first year. April 2022 they opened. So they were like a year and a couple months into being Carboy at that location. And. And you know, they’d been turning on the open sign and welcoming people in. But they hadn’t really been putting the space to full use. And I mean, I walked out and I saw the back and I was like, okay, this is a venue at a winery, not a winery with a venue. Like, it is primarily a space to go experience things while you’re drinking wine as opposed to primarily a space where you’re drinking wine. Like it’s got more potential for so many things that are not wine related, that bring in people from all walks of life and then by doing that, break down the barriers of who thinks they fit in in a winery.

Lisa: I love that. So just going back to winemaking really quick before we jump over to events. So, and I think this is a positive thing. But to me, the number of wines that Carboy makes is almost overwhelming

Barbie: it is!

Lisa: because there are so many different varieties and there’s so many sparkling wines. And it’s like such a treat to me. To number one, everybody is always so friendly when we show up and the space is amazing. It’s like one of my favorite places to hang out. Especially on Sunday afternoons.

Barbie: Yeah, I know. You’re part of Sunday crew.

Lisa: Yeah, but with that number of wines, I mean there are so many. What tend to stand out as some of the fan favorites or like which ones tend to rise to be more popular?

Barbie: It really depends on the season. You know, wine is seasonal, but our on-season is summertime, April to November. And so definitely sparkling wine is our top seller. Sparkling, the Grand Brut Rose, which I know you’ve had before, the Blanc de Blanc, those are like far and away the biggest sellers. I think a big part of that is that it is hot. People want something easy and fun and relaxing. And I think also maybe because I love bubbles, so I always force people to try the bubbles.

Lisa: and they’re so good!

Barbie: They’re so good. And then also, some of the things that we’re more known for that are not sparkling, I would say Cabernet Franc. Cabernet Franc is one of the better known varietals in the valley in general. So people tend to ask for that and seek it out. We also do really well in whites with our Riesling, is very popular. Our Blan.CO white blend, which is blend of all Colorado fruit. Sauvignon Blanc always sells. Sauvignon Blanc is nationwide the most selling white wine, most consumed white wine, so that sells. And then things that have had some accolades. So our Teroldego won Governor’s cup two times. So people often ask for that. And then we have some standouts for New World cultivars, modern variety grapes. Our Chambourcin is really popular, which is one of the New World cultivars. And that’s a red dry, single varietal, hybrid grape, which is unusual and surprising for me to like how popular it is. But that’s the wine, as soon as we get on the shelf, people come in and they’re like, I’m gonna buy a case. And then, like, two months later, it’s gone. And I mean, it really does change. It also depends on what our staff likes. We are very privileged to have a lot of wine training and a lot of people in the company that have, you know, letters after their name regarding wine, which is awesome. Kellen Brewer, who does all the training education for the company, comes out several times a year and does sensory trainings with our team. You know, I have a lot of background in tasting and training on wines, so we get to really dive deep into, like, what our team likes and then help push the things that we know we enjoy for people to try. And the beauty of wine over other types of beverage is like, you can just taste as many as you want. It’s like going to, like, a gelato store. You know, I don’t even care if you buy a glass. You should just taste it. Like, tasting wine is one of the rare pleasures in life. Taste all the wine. And so it really lets people kind of experiment and, like, see what they like. And it is an overwhelming amount. But that’s also one of the privileges of being in Colorado. You know, you go wine tasting in Willamette Valley, you’re gonna, every place you go, you’re gonna taste like six Pinot Noirs, which is fine. I love Pinot Noir. But that’s just how it is. You go to Napa, you’re like Cabernet, Chardonnay.

Lisa: Chardonnay.

Barbie: You know, you’re not gonna get anything else other than that. And out here, one of the cool things about Colorado wine country is we have tons and tons of different fruit. In the 16 acre plot that we have at the Mount Garfield Estate location, we have Albarino, Teroldego, Syrah, Cab Franc, Traminette, some others I’m sure that I can’t remember right now. And then we have like another 16 acres that’s all new world cultivars. I mean, we probably have, you know, more than 15 types of grapes that we just our fruit that we grow. And so it is. It definitely, sparkling wine dominates. I think that’s also bachelorette party syndrome. We are a bachelorette party mecca. And who doesn’t want sparkling rose when you’re celebrating your friend getting married?

Lisa: Absolutely.

Barbie: But I think, yeah, we’re the bubbles people.

Lisa: And also what helps with that too, I think, is producing it the way that you do in the Charmat method. It helps it be more affordable.

Barbie: Absolutely.

Lisa: I think. I mean, I am all for champagne, champagne style produced wines, aging in the bottle and whatever, but they’re so much more expensive.

Barbie: Yeah.

Lisa: And so it is a treat to see you can get a really good, really great tasting, like, quality bottle of bubbles for not that much money.

Barbie: Yeah, $34, you get a bottle of bubbles. Other places you go, they’re nineteen dollar a glass for methode champenoise. You know, it’s a huge price difference. And it also, for me, I do love champagne, but I definitely drink more Charmat method wine. Whether it’s Carboy wine or Prosecco, it tends to be like, a little bit crisper, a little bit lighter, a little bit less yeasty, which for my palate and for my susceptibility to headaches, works better for my body. And it’s, you know, comparative to doing forced carbonation, which there are other people out here that do that. It’s not, forced carbonation is not a bad thing, but the bubbles are a lot bigger and you really have to commit to finishing that bottle. Like, if you don’t finish the bottle, it’s gonna be flat like a can of Coke.

Lisa: it’ll be a still wine.

Barbie: Yeah, exactly. But Charmat, it’s like you can put the little cap thing on it and put it in the fridge and it’ll be good for a few days. And, you know, I think, yeah, I think the affordability part of it is definitely a big thing. And just ease of drinking. Like, we finally, in wine, not just at Carboy, but in general in wine culture have gotten out of the Suckling era of really big, really chewy tannic reds. You know, it used to be that wine reviewers and wine writers and wine judges led the palette of America. And now we’re in this era, which is really pushed by the younger drinking generation, which is not typical in wine. Wine is typically driven by older drinkers. Most people don’t even get into wine until they’re, like, in their 30s. But people now are looking for something that just genuinely tastes good. And it’s like, fun on the palate. And I think, you know, the rise of sparkling water and like, you’re drinking a La Croix right now.

Lisa: always!

Barbie: Who doesn’t drink bubbly water you know? And, like, I think beer drinkers transitioning into wine, lean into sparkling wine. And sparkling wine, wine nationwide is in contraction. Sparkling wine is the only category of wine that’s still in a growth phase. And I think that just speaks to, like, what people are enjoying right now.

Lisa: Yeah.

Barbie: You know.

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. This is sort of a random question, but, is there anything behind. So when Carboy did purchase the Mount Garfield Estate, I know they kept the name Carboy Winery at Mount Garfield Estate. Was there anything behind keeping that name and honoring it instead of just retiring it and calling it Carboy Winery Palisade?

Barbie: Yeah. I love that you asked that because, people ask it and also get confused about it all the time because of Google Maps and like the branding of it. So Mount Garfield Estate is the name of the vineyards. So they’re, in wine, generally speaking, vineyards, they usually have their own name. And the better fruit you can cultivate, the higher price point you can then sell that fruit for and charge for your wine. You know, there’s this phrase people like to say, if you want to make a little bit of money and wine, invest a lot. Farming grapes is a money losing industry, especially here in Colorado. if you’re looking at places like Napa, a ton of grapes goes for around $10,000 to $12,000. If you’re looking at places like the Grand Valley AVA, ton of grapes goes for maybe $1,500 to $2,000. So we literally are not able to recoup the amount of money that we put into growing the grapes by selling them.

Lisa: like a ton, how much would a ton be, like, acreage wise?

Barbie: I wish I could answer that question better. That would be a James question. Yeah, I don’t, I don’t farm the grapes. I do everything in the front. James, James does all the back stuff. But, it’s. I mean, I think we are probably getting two to three tons an acre. That would be a guess.

Lisa: Okay.

Barbie: Yeah.

Lisa: So, yeah, that’s not a lot of money.

Barbie: No. Oh, no. We vineyards are never in the black, ever, out here. I don’t know of anyone that is. And that’s one of the reasons that like, after that bad freeze in 2020, people just didn’t replant grapes. They planted peaches. Peaches are the cash crop out here. You just can’t really make money on grapes. You just can’t recoup the amount that it takes to grow it. And so one of the ways that, down the road because, everything in wine is like very future oriented. Right. Like you plant vines and you’re not gonna be able to get a viable harvest off those vines for three years. And then if you’re making a red, it’s gonna go in a barrel for a couple years and then in the bottle for another couple years. So you’re looking like six, seven years down the road minimum, until you’re gonna see a return on that farming. As far as selling grapes goes though, vineyards that have well known names, I think, like a good example would be like, Emeritus Vineyards in California, they are a really well known Pinot Noir place. People will pay for grapes that are from vineyards that are known to have quality fruit. So maintaining. Yeah. The name of your vineyard, like at Mount Garfield Estates. If we do, let us pray, get to a point where we know that we are reliably getting really good fruit off of those vines every year. And we, like everyone else in the Grand Valley, both use our own grapes for production. We buy grapes from our neighbors and we sell grapes to our neighbors. The Grand Valley produces 85% of the grapes grown in Colorado. And that, I mean, there’s like 200 something wineries in Colorado and only 30 in the Grand Valley. So we are exporting a lot of our grapes to other Colorado wineries in general in this AVA. And so having a vineyard name that has really good fruit is a part of it. And paying homage not just to the winery that was there before us, but to Mount Garfield. Trying to link together the standout things that make the Grand Valley AVA special. Because when you are in a regional wine country, like people in wine, wine professionals, we don’t exist to them. Right. Like, they don’t know that we exist. And people come out here and I remember when I first moved out here, people were like, Mount Garfield. And I was kind of like, is that a mountain? Doesn’t look like it, kind of looks like a bump, you know, not really like a mountain. But its like claiming these things and being like, you know, when you’re sitting on the patio at Carboy, you are staring at Mount Garfield and like, paying honor to like, this is our AVA. This is what we have to offer. It is not well known. It is niche, it is regional, it is small, it is barely existent. And yet we are really proud of it. And we’re doing things that are really awesome and different and we want people to know: we’re like, you’re at Mount Garfield Estates. And yes, it’s Carboy. And all of our locations also have different identities. We like to put ‘at Mount Garfield Estate’ so that people know we are in the vines. We are where the grapes are grown. I was at this training put on by CAVE, our local nonprofit recently, where they were talking about, consumer recognition. I think I think they said, I’m pretty sure these are the numbers. Palisade peaches have 75% consumer recognition in Colorado. People know peaches come from Palisade. Colorado wine, less than 40%. So people are not even, that live in the state, are not aware that we are growing wine here. And so, like, the more that we can, like, lean into that and when people go to the Carboy website, a lot of people go to Carboy in Denver and Littleton. They don’t even know they’re at a winery. Right. They think it’s like a wine bar or part of the restaurant. So our Littleton location has Angelo’s Taverna, which is an Italian restaurant, at it. And all the time people come to the tasting room and I’m like, have you been to Carboy before? No. Oh. And I tell them where it is. Oh, we’re like right next to Breckenridge Brewery on South Santa Fe in Littleton. Oh, we go to Angelo’s once a week. I’m like, you know where you get wine when you’re waiting for your table? That’s Carboy. Right next to that is a gigantic production facility and barreling room where we make all of our still wine. People don’t even know it exists. And so trying to like, link together each location with its sort of brand identity. We have the Gold Pan Saloon is which we own, which is connected to the Carboy in Breckenridge. We have Apres, which is like a fun, like kind of public market, community hub type of space at our Denver location, right next to Trader Joe’s in Governors Park. And then we have Mount Garfield Estates in Palisade. They’re all very different. I think we’re the best because this is where we grow and make the wine.

Lisa: Absolutely. It feels the most. I mean, it feels the most like you would picture: I’m going to a winery and that’s what you would picture.

Barbie: Yeah, exactly. You’re like in the vines.

Lisa: I don’t know if this is still something that y’all do, but the grey water recycling here. Is that something that still happens?

Barbie: Yeah, yeah, we recycle all of our grey water.

Lisa: That’s awesome.

Barbie: Yeah, it is awesome. It’s great. I mean, it’s something that, you know, when you live in a place with less than 10 inches of precipitation a year, like, you have to do everything you can. So recycle our grey water. We’re currently in the grant writing phase of getting a grant for solar. Our goal is to cover the top of our production facility with solar panels so that we’ll be able to have grey water and solar and just basically be as as little usage, energy use as possible.

Lisa: Yeah.

Barbie: And then our Littleton location, I think it is silver rated for green buildings for Denver, like their green ratings. so yeah, we’ we’re trying to do all the little things that we can.

Lisa: Switching over to events and all the different events Carboy hosts, we’ve touched on a little bit.

Barbie: Yes.

Lisa: But there’s a lot.

Barbie: There’s a lot.

Lisa: And I love that. I always love that. But, yeah, you have regular music, food trucks, the weekly Friday events, the Sunday yoga class that you teach. Is there like a staff favorite event that y’all host that you all really enjoy having?

Barbie: I mean, I’ll speak for myself. I don’t know. I feel like the staff, as long as it’s busy, they’re pretty happy. I think for as far as our, like, monthly events go, I love the Pen and the Glass open mic, which is a spoken word open mic that’s in collaboration with Western Colorado Writers Forum. They’re an amazing group that puts on all types of events for writers locally. And I have an MFA in poetry and I like, wanted to have more outlets for people to showcase their work. And we get like, between 20 and 40 people out, like, just being super vulnerable, reading their stuff, getting up there and sharing their work. I love that event. I think as far as our annual events go, the concert series are amazing. And I also love our wellness and wine fair. I feel like wine is, wine is obviously not a health drink. Right? Like, we all know that. But comparative to things like liquor or beer, wine tends to be something that people drink when they’re gonna have, like, a few drinks. Like, people aren’t gonna be like, yeah, let’s go get wasted. Let’s pop a bottle of chardonnay. You know, like, those are just. It’s just like, a different type of drinking. And, I feel like they kind of feed into each other in that way. And so for wellness and wine, we have, like, 24 vendors that are local vendors and fitness, wellness, and personal services that come out. And we do demo classes like yoga, barre, and Pilates, meditation, and just. I like the events where we get to, like, showcase the kind of cultural offerings that we have here and, like, add something that doesn’t exist in Palisade to the roster. Which is also why the concert series is so cool, because, you know, there’s a lot of people here, a lot of wineries here, I should say, that are doing somewhat of what we’re doing on our weekends, where we’re, like, featuring local food trucks. We’ve got our local neighbors and friends playing music, and that’s amazing. And we want our local community to be able to be showcased. Like, we have live music every Saturday, food trucks every Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And then also, there’s just not a lot of ways to showcase artists that are not our local friends and neighbors. Like, especially in Palisade. In Junction, you know, we have Los Colonias, we have Mesa Theater.

Lisa: Right.

Barbie: Palisade, there’s just really not any venues out here for stuff like that.

Lisa: Right, there’s not a big enough venue with, like, really great sound quality.

Barbie: Yeah. Except for now, there’s Carboy. And we, you know, we would not have been able to do any of, all of these events. These are all 100% homegrown. Like, we literally just went to our team, and we were like, what can we collectively do and offer? Like, I’m like, I’m a yoga teacher. I love poetry. Like, let’s do these things. Clint Richards is our production manager, and he was like, well, like, I love music. Like, let’s put on some shows. And so he invested a lot of money into an amazing sound system and uses all of these connections that he has nationwide with all these artists to bring in people that you would otherwise just not see in the Grand Valley. And it’s really cool to get some of these bigger artists into Palisade, especially at like a boutique outdoor venue that’s like not. I mean I love Mesa Theater, don’t get me wrong. But we are not Mesa Theater.

Lisa: It’s a different vibe.

Barbie: It’s a different vibe. It’s a very different vibe. And it’s so cool to be like under the stars in the vines and getting to see like world class acts. People that have, you know, toured nationally and internationally at this cool little venue where there’s like not. You’re not gonna be shoulder to shoulder, jammed in with people. Like we cap it at like 180 tickets, which is in the amount of space that we have plenty of room to like set down a blanket, get up and dance, hang out, have it feel relaxed and get to see amazing shows with great sound quality. It’s like something that, you know, when we were talking about like what can we do with this? James and Clint and I were all like, god, wouldn’t this be cool if we could do this? Kind of like we just kind of selfishly are making things that we want to attend. And just hoping that other people want to come too. And it’s been really successful and like, you know, we’ve seen not just with Carboy, but in general Palisade wine country grow more into this like let’s offer something more than just wine. Which is amazing. And since I first moved to the Grand Valley in 2016, we are world away from where we were then, you know, now there’s like something to actually do. There’s stuff to go experience and like, the more I’m a big believer in just like arts and culture being a driver of regional identity. And I think that being able to offer that and to like and we couldn’t do alone. I just want to say that like we have amazing sponsors that partner with us to do this stuff. And without those sponsors, there’s no way that we could do this. We just simply can afford the quality of artists and the quality of sound that it takes by charging ticket prices. We would just have to be charging more.

Lisa: Exactly. Keeping the ticket prices reasonable. So people can actually afford them.

Barbie: Yeah, we want our general admission to be under $50 and our VIP to be under $100. And if we’re gonna do that, we need help to do it from the community. And so it’s been amazing to see just, like, the outpouring of support from people that also want to see these things offered in the community and, like, want to show up and partake in it. It’s. It’s been really heartwarming and it’s just cool to see the growth and then to, like, see how much the artists enjoy it and how much the crowd enjoys it. It’s super rewarding.

Lisa: That’s so cool. I’m a big proponent of making your own fun. And that’s, like, another thing here. Like, it’s related to. You’re talking about with wine you can kind of we have this lack of expectations so we can do whatever we want sort of like, with events and things here too. It’s like, if you want to do something, you probably can figure out how to do it.

Barbie: Absolutely. Yeah.

Lisa: People are probably gonna be supportive.

Barbie: Yeah, that’s what’s been so cool. Like, with the open mic thing with Western Colorado Writers Forum, I literally just, like, emailed Melody Jones, who’s the president, and was like, hey, I wanna do this? And like, three days later it was on the calendar. And she comes out every time and, like, facilitates and hosts. It’s amazing, you know, and like, our paint and sip person, she’s like a local school teacher who’s like, oh I’ll come once a month and teach a paint and sip class. And, like, we do hat making with Sarah Moon of Bloom and Brim. And like, she’s our neighbor, you know? And like, that’s what’s so cool about Palisade in general is like, everything is literally like, our community. Like, what do we genuinely actually have to offer? And it’s so different than big corporate kind of like, I don’t know, there’s, in the higher, higher input markets, like in California, you know, a lot of those wineries are owned by big corporations, and you just don’t have as much leeway to do things that are quite as personal as the way that we are able to do them out here. Like, when I came into the company, I was like, yeah, want to teach yoga. It was like. James was like, okay, go for it. You know, there was no. There was literally no pushback on any of this stuff. We were just like, I think we should try to do this. And it’s like, okay, well, if you’re willing to, like, put in the elbow grease and we can find people in the community that are willing to support us, we can make it happen. And, like, it’s cool to see at the other wineries too, because, you know, people are like, oh, you guys are doing so much. Like, how can we do it? I’m like, well, you don’t want to do what we’re doing because you don’t have Clint to do the sound. You know, like, you don’t have me who has like got a background in poetry and is a yoga teacher. Like, you want to talk to your team, see what they have to offer and offer something unique that is genuine and authentic. And is like really what you like, bringing your own skill sets to the table. And that’s what creates regional identity. That’s what makes it so that when you stop and you actually get off the highway and drive through town here, you get to see what the people are actually like that live here. You know, it’s not like we’re not doing this to like, oh, we just wanna make money. What other events can we do just to get people in the door? We’re doing this because it’s like, no, this is what we love. Like, we wanna share what we love with other people. And over a glass of wine. It’s the best way to do it.

Lisa: As residents here, we just get to benefit from that. So it’s great.

Barbie: Yeah.

Lisa: So going back to the concert series though. So this weekend is the kickoff, the first event.

Barbie: First event.

Lisa: Can you talk a little bit about the four concerts in the series and what’s upcoming after this weekend?

Barbie: Yeah. So this weekend is Bubbles and Blues. It is our annual event celebrating all things sparkling wine and blues music. We are so excited. We have Omar Coleman coming out from Chicago, Lightning Malcolm coming from Mississippi. And that’s our kickoff. And then we have Midsummer Music Fest is June 21^st, the Saturday or the third Saturday in June. And that’s our like Summer Solstice celebration. So we have three bands, we have two food trucks, we have tiny tattoos, we have tarot card reading, we have like, it’s like a full-on festival, which we’re super excited about. And it’s just like the fact that it’s on summer solstice to like be in the vines at a music festival, just really celebrating summer. You know, summer is what we thrive on out here in Palisade. And we all just live for summer and nothing happens here in the winter. So we’re really excited about that one. And then Harvest Harmonies is October 4^th, the first Saturday in October. And that’s definitely our celebration of harvest. And it’s always like a little bit folksy kind of music. We have an Irish musician coming out to play for that one, which just gonna be really cool. And that one is also so nice because it’s a little bit cooler. Things cool down a little bit in October, and we’re really looking forward to that. And then the last concert of this season is our Rave to the Grave, it is our costumes mandatory 21 and up Halloween party. The place to be for Halloween in the Grand Valley. That was something that Clint and I were both like, you know, coming from California and moving out here. There’s really not like an adult Halloween thing out here anywhere. And I love Halloween. It’s like my favorite thing ever. And I think just like being outside and like, you know, in this like kind of agricultural area also like, speaks to that Halloween vibe, you know. So we’re really excited about that. And then the whole concert series, all four concerts are sponsors of D51 foundation, which is our local nonprofit that supports education and learning here in District 51. So a portion of every ticket sold goes to D51 Foundation. And then we’re gonna be doing like a raffle and like a little extra bonus stuff at the Rave to the Grave also because like I said, we can’t afford to do this stuff on our own. And at the same time, we’re not. You don’t get rich in this industry. That’s not our goal. We are trying to support the community and bring as many like minded people into that goal as possible and see like, how far we can spread the good. You know, like, if you’re the person that’s sitting there enjoying the concert and drinking wine, like, that’s a win for us. If you’re the artist who’s getting paid to, you know, pay rent with your rock, that’s awesome for us. If you’re our employees who are able to like have a sustainable job in the Grand Valley, which, you know, 20 years ago was not a thing, like, that’s a win. And then if we can like pay that forward to support education for, you know, the next generation, it’s like we’re trying to hit on every level here so that you can like have an amazing concert, go out and enjoy it, and then also feel like you’re doing something good for the community. And that’s whether you live here or not. You know, you get to be like, hey, it’s summer solstice, I want to go get a tiny tattoo and shake my booty to some amazing music. And also I’m helping the world, you know?

Lisa: Yeah, it’s a win, win all around.

Barbie: Yeah, it’s a win, win all around. Exactly. I just hope that people recognize that, like, we’re doing all of this for more than just us, you know, I think that’s the most important thing to me. And what I love about working at Carboy is like, this is a benefit. And I think most of the other wineries are doing stuff like this too, where, like, it’s. This is a different wine country than Napa. We will never be rich, famous, $3,500 a bottle wine country. And that’s a good thing because we want to be authentic, real people working at our passion place. And I think that’s what’s so cool and unique about Palisade and what’s cool about Carboy. Is like, we are authentically doing what we love and we hope other people love it too.

Lisa: I love that. So then in closing, I just want to ask, what’s your favorite post-shift drink? What’s your go-to?

Barbie: Oh man. I am a bubbles girl through and through. Right now it’s probably the native fizz rose, which is pet nat rose, it’s amazing. Yeah. And my go to that, I usually the bottle that I bring home is the grand blanc de blanc. If I’m gonna bring a bottle home with me, I just love sparkling wine. It’s really hard for me to turn it down. That or whatever’s left at the end of the bottle. So, you know, I can take one for the team and drink that last four ounces of anything that’s left in the bottle.

Lisa: It’s the best. Thank you so much for being here.

Barbie: Thank you for having me.

Lisa: This was really just really fun for me to learn about one of my favorite places.

Barbie: I love that. Well, thank you so much for having me and thank you for being a sponsor for the concerts. Like I said, we couldn’t do this without you guys, so we’re so grateful for your support.

Lisa: Yeah. Thank you.

Barbie: Thank you.

Lisa: So as I mentioned, Barbie and I chatted right before the May 24^th Bubbles and Blues kickoff of the Carboy Concert Series. It was fantastic.

Regular podcast listeners will remember that Carboy’s stage is one of the former migrant farmworker cabins that used to dot Riverbend Park. JoAnn Rasmussen talked about these cabins in episode 39 – check that one out if you haven’t already to learn all about Palisade’s migrant and seasonal farmworkers of the past.

But back to the concert series – the podcast is a sponsor of the series because I, like Barbie, believe that arts and culture are a driver of regional identity, and a region that embraces and provides a wide perspective of art, music, ideas, food, and on and on, that’s what I want to see here too. So if you missed last weekend’s concert, check out one of the upcoming shows. Tickets are available at https://www.carboywinery.com/event-calendar/happenings.

The podcast’s theme music is Riverbend by Geoff Roper. Thanks for listening.

With love, from Palisade.

What is it about Palisade that makes people love living here so much? Dr. Carisa Authier joins me to discuss.

Theme Music: Riverbend by Geoff Roper

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Transcript:

Welcome to the Postcards From Palisade podcast. I’m Lisa McNamara. Palisade is most famous for its peaches, but there’s so much more happening in our little town. Join me as I chat with our community members to hear about how they are making Palisade a great place to live and visit.

What is it about Palisade that makes people love it so much? I’ve wondered this often, and then one day I was introduced to Dr. Carisa Authier, a Palisade resident who wrote a whole dissertation on this very topic. The town in question for her original paper was Sedona, AZ, but after Carisa and her husband first came to Palisade, she found that many of the same concepts applied to what would soon become their new hometown.

Carisa talks about what those things are that make Palisade so appealing and how Palisade can avoid becoming another Sedona. She talks about her unique approach to mental health as a psychology consultant here in Palisade. And I get to ask her the random question I’ve been wanting to ask a psychologist for so long! All that and more, on today’s Postcard From Palisade.

Lisa: Thank you so much for coming in and talking to me today.

Carisa: Thank you. I’m happy to be here. My name is Carisa Authier. It’s been so long since I’ve introduced myself, like, so I’m like, what do I want to say? So like my first thought was, to talk about how long I’ve lived in Palisade or like, should I introduce myself professionally? Yeah. No, it’s funny. It shouldn’t be a hard question. Because since I’ve been here, like, I’ve shown up as just a person. You know, I think about like, I hate being identified with what I do. I like being identified with who I am, as a person. So. And sometimes it’s hard. It’s hard to know what to pick. It makes me think of a group I was in years ago where we would say, okay, who are you professionally, personally and spiritually? You know, or you know, what are you passionate about in life versus like, okay, how do you make money

Lisa: I like that.

Carisa: You know, Because I feel like, like what you do is so limited. And so I think about since I’ve been here, you know, I think the way I’ve introduced myself has just been like, hi, my name is Carisa and we just moved to Palisade and we love it.

Lisa: I love that. You know, one of the things I actually was thinking about is, one of my cousins is a psychiatrist. And he would tell me he hates to introduce himself as a psychiatrist because as soon as he says that he can see people shut down and immediately form assumptions about him. And, I was also. I don’t know if, you know, Wendy Videlock, she is a poet. She said she also hates to introduce herself as a poet because it’s like a similar thing. She says, oh, I’m a poet. And immediately people have assumptions about what a poet is or, you know, what a psychologist is or psychiatrist is. So that was actually one of the things I wrote down that I was curious about, if you like to kind of lead with what you do or not, so, that’s interesting.

Carisa: Oh, yeah. And it’s interesting to hear that, because I hate saying that I’m a psychologist, because people. And it’s because people have a very definite reaction. And so, you know, people immediately become different. You know, they feel like, oh, that I can read their minds or that they can. You know, they suddenly feel vulnerable in a way, so they get immediately closed off. And so, like, when I would go to parties, you know, people are like, what do you do? And I learned this the hard way by telling them and then watching that dynamic. Or, you know, sometimes people would share what their fear was with me, and I’m like, look, I’m off the clock, first of all. Like, I don’t want to work that hard. And, you know, think about every little thing you say. I’m here to have fun. I’m here as a person.

Lisa: Yeah.

Carisa: And so. But it’s interesting talking about this now. You know, before I became a psychologist, I was actually a chemist. So I’ve had a number of different careers, and, becoming a psychologist was kind of the latest one. But so starting out as a chemist, when I was. At the time, I lived in Georgia. And so this is when I was in my 20s, we were all single, and I would go out to bars with friends of mine, and I had friends that were wedding planners or would work at different corporate things. But I could watch talking to guys, and they would talk to my friends, and they’d say, what do you do? And I’d say, I was a chemist. And their eyes would glaze over, or they suddenly were not interested in me, and they would only be interested in my friends. And so then I started playing with it, and I used to make up things that I was. It was like, I’m a flight attendant or, you know, I’m a secretary, just to get people to talk to me. Because there was something about me saying I was a chemist, that was too intimidating, at least for the men I was running into in the Deep South.

Lisa: That’s fascinating. That’s so cool. And, yeah, I mean, it’s definitely something where I’ve never. I never liked to talk about what I did. Anyway, before we go off on too far of a digression, I think that’s really interesting. And just to clarify for anybody listening, though, you can’t read minds, right?

Carisa: That’s right. No, I don’t read minds.

Lisa: OK. Alright. That’s cool. Just to stick on the topic of what you do for a little bit longer, I think it’s really interesting that you change careers midlife, because that’s really something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately, too, and I think that’s really hard, especially going back and getting a doctorate is really hard. So what drove you to do that?

Carisa: Yeah, it was really hard. it was. You know, I feel like it was kind of a progression. So, like, I got a degree in chemistry to start off just because I was good in chemistry. There weren’t very many women in chemistry, so it was just practical. Like, you know, I grew up with a single mom who was always in kind of whatever job she could get. So that influenced me of, like, wanting to get a career that I could take care of myself and have more of a stable life. And so that was a practical decision. In my opinion, I was a mediocre chemist, but it did help get me a job. I mean, out of college I started working for Georgia Pacific a couple months after I graduated in their research and development department. And so I learned way more about building products than I ever thought I would know because I worked in this division where we made adhesives for plywood and engineered lumber. And then I went into kind of industrial. And so I was able to kind of move around, like, within that corporate setting.

I got tired of being in the lab, so then I went into sales, and I worked in their sales department. And that actually helped move me from the east coast back to the west coast where I was born. So that was probably the big draw there. I didn’t know anything about sales. I mean, they literally dropped me off in California with a company car and my sales list and said, okay, go at it. So that was a whole. So that was kind of my second career, but it kind of built off the chemistry. I started selling the products that I used to do research on.

And then, but I’m not a good salesman. And I realized when I was in that I made really good connections with my clients. But I started going in, I could tell if they were having a bad day or if they were tired. So instead of trying to sell them something, I was like, hey, when’s the last time you took a vacation? You know, when’s the last time you and your wife went out to dinner?

And so I started actually taking classes at night and working during the day, and I took psychology classes. It had been a love when I was in undergrad, but it wasn’t practical at the time. Like, I thought I could, you know, start working with a bachelor’s degree in chemistry as a woman, a lot easier than a bachelor’s degree in psychology, and make a living to support myself. So I started realizing that my classes, my psychology classes at night were much more fulfilling and satisfying than my sales job during the day. So that kind of began this kind of progression to kind of move eventually out of sales and apply to graduate programs, you know, after I took a number of classes at night and was like, yeah, no, this is. This is really my love.

And my husband was horrified when I told him. I was like, guess what? I’m go going to quit my job and go back to school. And he’s like, what? We had been married, I think, for a year. So, I mean, he was worried about it. I mean, it’s a huge expense to go back, and it’s a huge time commitment, and it means that he had to hold down the household. and because so much my time went into going back to school, but since then, I mean, it is really, like, that is my niche. I’m really good at what I do and I love it. It doesn’t feel like work. And now he can see, like, he’s like, wow. No, this was definitely the right move for you, you know, so it all came around.

Lisa: Yeah. And he seems like your number one cheerleader now.

Carisa: Yes, yes. He’s definitely a big cheerleader.

Lisa: That’s cool. So he mentioned when he reached out to me on Facebook about you being an interesting person to talk to, that you have a really unique approach to mental health and, and to psychology. So what is different about your approach and how would it be different to more like, a quote, unquote, traditional approach?

Carisa: So it’s interesting that you bring that up because since I’ve, you know, I worked as a licensed clinical psychologist when I was in Arizona, and then when I came to Colorado, I’ve reshifted kind of my whole platform to be more in line with how I think about the work instead of trying to fit what I do into that typical psychologist box. So here I’m not licensed as a psychologist. I’m actually a psychology consultant. I do more of what I call education rather than, okay, come to me and tell me your symptoms and let me diagnose you.

Like, psychology is very much framed after the medical model, which is all about listening to symptoms and getting rid of the symptoms. And my beef with psychology has been that they ignore context, in my opinion. So what I do is more than, instead of having a symptom and trying to get rid of it, I look at that as a part of yourself that wants to get to know you. And so I help people look at the messages that their body gives them as, like, look, this is like learning a whole new language. And this is the language of the psyche. And so when you feel quote, unquote depressed, I see this as a part of yourself that is incongruent with something in your life. It’s not something to get rid of. It’s something to be curious about and understand.

You know, and I saw this a lot in my practice where like, quote unquote anxiety or depression, to me were always instances where the person was doing something to please somebody outside of themselves that was not in alignment with what they wanted as a person. And so that was the way that their psyche was trying to get their attention. And so, you know, I look at everything that comes up as there’s a reason why this is coming up. You know, whether it’s anger or terror or sadness or. And so instead of, yeah, trying to get rid of it, it’s like, no, learn how to make space for it and want to get to know it.

And so, I mean, I guess now I tell people, like, I connect. I connect people to themselves, and I help people have a deeper relationship with themselves because the more somebody understands themselves and learns to like all of them, instead of trying to reject these pieces they don’t like, the better their life gets, the better their relationships get. You know, they can just move forward in a clearer way. So, yeah, I kind of scrap this, the medical model and say, no, I just want to help you have a deeper relationship with yourself.

Lisa: Yeah, that’s really fascinating. And, especially because, right. Like you said, sometimes there is no getting rid of the symptom. It’s not like I don’t know, a virus or something. Like it’s a lot of times there is no getting rid of it. It’s just part of who somebody is. So that’s interesting because that is a completely different approach to saying no, you have this thing that we need to cure. It’s like no, you have this thing that’s part of your person that you need to accept and love and like that’s really cool.

Carisa: Yeah.

Lisa: I like that. I can see how that would be much more like, I don’t know, humanistic, if that’s the right word, but just like empathetic way of working with people.

Carisa: I feel like there’s so much of life where we, we just kind of enhance these, these self criticisms. I mean I think I’ve learned that everybody has a critical voice and it works against them, you know. And so when somebody can develop self love and self compassion and they’re easier on themselves, they’re easier on everybody else too, you know. But we’re not really taught that.

Lisa: No, no. Like it’s a problem that needs to be fixed is like the way that it’s more commonly kind of looked at today which you can see coming at it from a different approach would absolutely caused a different result. So now you’re here. So what brought you and Marc to Palisade originally?

Carisa: It’s funny, we landed here by accident. I put accident and air quotes. We took off on a journey a couple of years ago. We have a little camper van and we set up our life and our schedule so that we could take three months to travel around in our camper van. And our intention was to actually make it up to Canada and look for little towns up there to maybe spend the summers in. So by that time we were clear that we wanted, we wanted to get out of Arizona at least in the summer because it’s just been so freaking hot there.

And so, so that was the plan. What actually happened is we got up close to the border, it was cold, it was rainy. It was going to be cold and rainy for another like two weeks. And we’re like, we’re in a van and this sucks and actually we can go wherever we want, you know. So we’re like okay, let’s abandon that plan and let’s go chase the sun. So we went south. We ended up joining Harvest Host because we ended up going to this vineyard in Oregon that we had been to when we were dating. So 22 years prior. My husband remembered how to get there. We get there. Turns out that the woman who runs the place now, it was her parents that had started it. When we were there 22 years ago, that was the first year that that tasting room had been built. Her father had since passed away. And so we showed up there and could share these stories and had kind of this immediate kinship. And so as we’re sitting there drinking wine, and we watch somebody drive through the property with a little teardrop camper, and we’re like, wow, can you camp here? And she’s like, well, you can do it through this program called Harvest Host. And she goes. And we have two spots, and one’s taken, but we have one open for tonight. And we’re like, sweet. How do we join Harvest Hosts so we could camp here?

So that’s how we joined Harvest Host. And so, you know, so we’re continuing to go south through Oregon and Nevada. And so we had come. We were planning to explore parts of Colorado that we were familiar with. So, like, Crested Butte, Ouray. We had never been to Palisade. We had driven through Grand Junction I think once. The way that the timing worked, it’s like we looked on Harvest Host to see if there’s anywhere we could stay. And so we stayed in Palisade through Harvest Host, and we were planning to stay one night, and then we were going to go on. So I think we stayed at Gubbini’s winery. So we did wine tasting with her and then we had a little electric motorcycle that we can both fit on. And so, you know, we set up camp, and then we went to tour around. And we ended up at Restoration and met Gary, and we were like, this place is really cool. I mean, we just instantly fell in love.

And so I think. I think the next day, we probably rented a room at Spoke and Vine because we were like, we need to stay another day. And it kind of went like that for. We hovered around this area for a month, actually, because every day we’d go out and we’d explore, and we’re like, this place just feels different. So one of the cool things about our trip was, like, we went up the western coast, so we went up through California and Oregon and Washington. And each time we would go to places, my husband and I would say, like, how does this place feel? And we were both pretty in sync of, like, well, this is fine, but there’s something missing, or this just doesn’t feel right. And even places where we’d camp and be like, oh, I don’t like it here, let’s get out of here. And it was the first time that we had judged places like that. And so then when we got here, and it was instantly, we were both like, oh, this feels different. And then we were like, we could live here. And it’s like, okay, if we’re, you know, but vacationing somewhere is different than living here. But we’re like, we actually have the time in our schedule. Like, if we’re serious about this, we should. We should try to stay for, like, a month and see how it is day to day.

And then after that, we met Anita Hicks at her farmstand, and then we met her son. After we met Anita, we came back the next day to talk to her again, and we were like, we actually think we’re gonna hang out here and do you happen to know anybody who is renting a place? The way it turned out, like, I think we stayed at Spoke and Vine for a week. I think we rented a hotel in Grand Junction for a week just to try that out. and then we stayed at Peachfork and did the camping program there. And so, you know, we did a couple different things. But.

And so while we were here, I started thinking about my dissertation, actually. And, you know, because I wrote about the psychology of place. And so I use this framework of, like, these four components to kind of assess a place. And so those components are sense of place, place attachment, community rootedness, and home. And so we started evaluating, like, okay, does this place meet those things? You know, so sense of place is that immediate felt sense. And we felt it when we’re here, like, immediately this feels different.

Place attachment. We didn’t have a lot of attachment. We had attachment to Colorado, but not to the Western Slope. We didn’t know anything about the Western Slope except that this place is so amazingly centrally located to all the places we love. You know, it’s amazing to be two hours away from Moab, two hours away from Ouray, and 90 minutes away from Glenwood Springs. But we felt, we felt this immediate sense of community. I mean, just like, when it was so easy to talk to every single person we ran into. And I remember when we were at Restoration, and Gary told us about when his friend first drove him through, and he was immediately like, okay, let me look for a place to get. Because it felt different.

You know, when we talked to Anita, and then, you know, Marc immediately hit it off with Ben, her son. And there was just something that I immediately liked about her and the fact that they were both like, well, yeah, you know, let me call, you know, a couple people I know and see, and here, let’s get your phone number. And we were like, really? You know, and then, you know, meeting Jeff and Jody, you know, at the Spoke and Vine, and then. And of course. And then going to their restaurant, Fidel’s, and we just, like, everybody was so friendly. Like, I was so struck by how friendly everybody was. And we had just, you know, been traveling up the coast. We had been to all these little towns, and, like, this place is different.

And then the sense of home, you know, it’s just like, well, where do you feel comfortable? And, you know, I feel like those other components help a place feel comfortable. So. Yeah. And so after a month, I was like, yeah, we gotta move here. So. And it’s interesting. I think I was. Well, I think when we were both here, we were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. My husband loves Arizona and has deep, much deeper ties to Arizona than I do. So we got back to Arizona, and he was like, I don’t know if I can move. And I was a little heartbroken, actually, because I was like, oh, I know. I’m ready to move. Like, I would have. I think we got home in August. So we were here at the end of June through July. So we were here during the hottest time, too. And everybody’s like, oh, it’s hot here. And we’re like, oh, yeah, no, this is nothing compared to what we. What we’re used to, right? So. And he’s like, well, maybe we could go there for part of the year and but keep a place here for part of the year. I knew, like, I was ready to leave, and I just had to help convince him.

So we, we came back out here in January, and I was like, okay, we were there during the hottest time. Let’s go there in the winter when it’s slow and see if we still love it, you know? So we came out here for a week in January. We went skiing up at Powderhorn and rented one of the little tiny houses up there. And, you know, we saw. I don’t think we saw Anita that trip, but we saw her son Ben. I think we ran in. We went to Fidel’s. So we saw Jeff and Jody. And so it was just like, it was fun to come back. And, like, people remembered us from, you know, when we were here this summer, and it still felt like, oh, yeah, wait, let’s go see these people. And it didn’t feel weird or, you know, it was just like, this is easy.

And so after that week, you know, Marc was like, okay, let’s do it. And I’m like, awesome. So, you know, by then I had, closed my practice there. So I closed it at the end of May, and we started looking for a place to rent here, and things lined up to make it happen. And so now we’ve. We actually took ownership of the place that we’re in. We got the keys May 24^th. Although we did a lot of back and forth last summer to actually move. So we weren’t officially here till August 10^th. But so we’re coming up on almost a year, and it’s still. Every day we’re like, we get to live here!

Lisa: Yes it’s like a vacation every day. It is. That’s really interesting because, my husband and I had a very similar journey here. We had taken. We actually took two really long career breaks, which, you know, everybody thought we were completely nuts for doing. But we took a year when we were 30, and then we took a year and five months when we were 40, and, just drove around the US and camped and really were looking for that special place. And like you said, it’s amazing. We also drove all the way up the west coast and hit every 50 states. And between the two trips, the second trip was very focused on Colorado and Utah and California, Arizona. All my favorite stuff. But, like, you feel, sometimes immediately upon driving into a town, you get the feeling of the town, and it’s almost. It’s like. It’s so weird, but it’s almost, like, irrational. You just. I don’t know what it is. You drive in, you get a feeling. You’re like, I don’t like this place, or, I like this place.

Carisa: Yep.

Lisa: And it’s hard to kind of change that first impression, but there was really nowhere that we went that was like Palisade. And even including places we’ve lived all over the country, you know, a lot of places, you. Some places I’ve lived, like, everybody you talked to just wants to leave. They’re miserable. They hate it there, you know, they’re just unhappy. So I have never been in or lived in a place for this long, we’re coming up on three years, where everybody is like, every day they’re just like, happy. Like, what is in the water here? I don’t know but I like it. But it was a really similar thing where we had been traveling for 15 months, and we were going into the winter, and it was cold and it was start. I’m like, I don’t want to do another winter on the road. Like, let’s rent a place.

And I had to convince him to stay here because it’s quote unquote so warm, even though it was, winter. But as soon as we rented a place and we started meeting people, immediately they were so warm and welcoming. And it was such an embrace that. Especially from being full time on the road during Covid you know, we were very isolated a lot of the time, it was like, this is home. It just felt like home right away. And I think that’s so fascinating because, like, again, with your dissertation about Sedona, you know, I have to admit I didn’t read the whole thing, but I skimmed it. But a lot of the things that people were saying about what they found so compelling about Sedona, I feel like, are similar to what I’ve heard from people here, where it’s almost like you can’t explain it, but it’s a feeling you feel it’s a special place and it just speaks to you. And I’m just fascinated by that. Like, what do you think. What do you think is behind that kind of a feeling that people get, or is it unexplainable?

Carisa: Well, I mean, I think. I think there is something really special about people who choose to live in a town. So I think they take care of the town differently. I think they interact with people differently. One of the things that was interesting about doing my dissertation research is I, a lot of that I had to go through a lot of relocation research. And, you know, and I found out that people in the United States relocate more than people than anywhere else in the world. And the main reason people relocate is for a job. And so the job is the priority. How they make money is the priority. Where, like, the people in Palisade choose to live here. And I think and they figure out the job part second.

It was one of the things that struck me about Sedona, actually, and why I picked people who moved to Sedona in midlife because in midlife people are typically in the height of their careers and there is no industry, really, I mean, there’s a lot of tourism in Sedona, but it’s not like there’s industry that’s going to relocate people there. And so I was like, so what is that driving force? And so people either felt this felt sense, like as soon as they got there, kind of like we talked about of how we felt here, a lot of people like vacationed there with their family and so they moved there as soon as they can make it work out. Just because it was so beautiful or there’s something that struck them.

But the thing about Sedona that almost everybody talked about is that there wasn’t a sense of community there. And that’s even, even less now. Because the town has kind of gone towards tourism and Airbnbs and short term rentals and they’ve allowed big box places to come in, so like Whole Foods bought the local grocery store and Starbucks drove the local coffee shops out of business. And so like, when we left there, the feeling was much different than when we first got there. And it’s another reason why I love Palisade, because I feel like the government here is really committed to keeping that community feel, which means they’re really committed to that balance between community and not putting everything towards tourism because it’s super easy to do. Sorry, this is a long answer to that question, but there’s. When people move to a place just for a job, they don’t have the same attachment to it. They don’t have the same love for it. So you can drive through like some towns or some cities and they’re not well maintained or picked up or they just it feels different. Versus people who genuinely want to be there. It’s just a different energy.

Lisa: Yeah.

Carisa: You know, so it’s, it’s the difference between, okay, doing what I should do and when people tell me that, I’m always like, yeah, but what do you want to do? Because “shoulds” are old programming or something somebody else has told you to do, and you’re kind of doing it reluctantly or dragging your feet versus, but I want to do that. You know, that’s a different energy. And so I think the people in Palisade, or at least everybody I’ve talked to, like, wants to be here. And so you start from this different baseline. And I think it permeates everything.

Lisa: Also are not industries that would relocate people here for work. So, yeah, we all have to make it at work here in different ways. So speaking of town meetings, I know that you and Marc are also really involved in going to them. I usually just zoom in to them because I. I tell people I like to make dinner while I watch the meeting if I don’t have anything to say. But having that perspective of coming from a town that really became committed to tourist growth and was probably inarguably overrun by it. To here where I agree, I think they’re really carefully, thoughtfully debating about how do we grow but keep the community character. I think the town is doing a great job of that. And yeah, what’s your thought on that? What do you think they. Because growth is inevitable and so we’re always gonna have that tension of, you know, tourism is what keeps a lot of the businesses and people here employed. What do you think Palisade should definitely not do that Sedona did or. That’s not a very well structured question, but I think maybe you kind of see what I’m getting at!

Carisa: Yeah, no, I do.

Lisa: What’s the worst thing the Palisade could do that would ruin everything?

Carisa: Well, I guess one of the things that I’ve appreciated is that they have a cap on how many short term rentals they can do. And I think that’s huge because I watched Sedona not regulate that at all. And so then, you know, neighborhoods became like, became fractured because now it was a different person in this house every other, every few days. And so, you know, the people who had lived there for a long time complained of like, now there’s increased traffic or, you know, one of the things I noticed in Sedona was how much more trash there was. There was graffiti now on the red rocks. That never used to happen.

And I think part of that is just again, the temporariness of letting people come in for just a few days. And people would justify, like, well, now I can allow people who can’t afford hotels or families to stay in here. And I always think, well, first of all, just because you can, should you? And second of all, like, like you have to consider the whole picture and not just this one little slice. And so how is one action going to impact the whole. I used to be able to go on hikes in Sedona where I wouldn’t see another person or I’d see very few people. And there were certain hikes that only the locals knew about. All that’s gone. I mean, now if you’re not in a parking lot before 9am you’re not going to get a parking place. And you see dozens of people on the hikes. And like I said, now I see graffiti and trash that I never used to see. Because now it’s not people who live there because they love it and they want to care for it. It’s people who have no attachment to that place. And so their behavior and how they treat that place reflects that.

Lisa: They’re not going to see the impact of treating the place poorly. They’re just there for the weekend, somebody else will pick up their water bottle.

Carisa: Exactly.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, I see that. I mean, living in Fort Collins or living on the Front Range versus here, I think is similar where, you know, you can’t. Front Range has become so busy, like, you can’t hike a lot of the popular trails. And, it is just, it’s a different feel. And yeah, I like the slow pace here. I love that there are trails we can hike on that nobody really knows about or places we can go. It’s like very feels very secret still, so definitely hope it stays that way. But it’s such a hard balance.

Carisa: It totally is. You know, and it’s funny. Like, even, you know, I know USA Today is doing, you know, the top 20 farmers markets, and, like, right now they’re doing the top 20 roadside motels. And so, you know, and I had mixed feelings about voting for those because it’s like, yay! Like, I want to pump Palisade up and have it on the map. And I also am like. I also don’t want people to know about it because, you know, people, like, can love a place to death. So it’s. It’s definitely a balance, you know, I mean.

And I think, you know, one of the things I’ve been impressed about here, too, is I think there’s an awareness, especially during the winter, that, okay, there’s not as many tourists, and yet there’s all these local businesses that need to stay in business. And so I feel like at least the people I’ve talked to are really mindful of, like, yeah, let’s go out to dinner, or like, the monthly wine club so we can keep giving these businesses business during the winter and so that the community is kind of committed to supporting them because that benefits all of us. That’s part of the balance, I think, of, like. Yeah, no, as a community, we need to help sustain all the businesses here and not rely just on tourism. But we all need to help each other.

And I guess something else I’ve noticed that I love. Like in other places I’ve felt more competition between businesses. We’re here, I feel there’s a lot more collaboration. And so it’s kind of like, okay if we all, like, if we want everybody to do well, you know. And so like, for example, I go to Blondie Yoga’s class on Sundays because I’m so grateful actually that I can walk a block and, and go to yoga and that, you know, she has partnered with the Blue Pig so that it, it’s good for both of them. Or like ordinary fellow, you know, who does, you know, the historical society meetings or the, or the watercolor. It’s like I feel like so many of the businesses here are very community minded and so, and that they kind of stick together of like, okay, how can we do things that benefit all of us? Like, there’s more win-win mentality than, oh no, I’m, you know, I want my cut and I don’t care what happens to everybody else.

Lisa: Yes, very collaborative. And that’s something I’ve heard from pretty much everybody in every type of field that I have talked to for this podcast. From farmers to business owners to everybody. It’s like with a few exceptions, you know, which nobody wants to say any names, but most people are willing to go above and beyond to help their, they, you know, what other people would consider competitor. Even to the extent of, you know, lending them equipment and lending them supplies when they don’t have it. And that’s definitely a unique thing here too.

And you speak about the seasonality too. When I first moved here, I’m definitely a summer person. I love the summer and you know, I like the crowds of people. I think it’s a lot of fun. But somebody told me, oh, in a few years you’re going to love the winter more and you’re gonna like be sad when the season hits. And this year was the first year. I was kind of walking downtown the other day and it was really busy and I’m like, oh, I’m a little sad now. I didn’t think that would ever happen. Because like the local community and just the atmosphere over the winter and the quiet months and having Powderhorn and you know, cross country skiing, it’s like, that’s really fun. It’s really nice that we get to enjoy this place to ourselves. So it happened to me.

Carisa: Oh that’s so funny, because we’re still very much in the first year. So it’s like, you know, going to the Honeybee festival. And at first, like, when I first saw things about it, I was like, we thought we were gonna be out of town. And I was like, oh, that won’t be any big deal if we miss it. And I honestly thought some of it would be a little cheesy. And so then we went and, like, it was freaking adorable.

Lisa: It’s so cute!

Carisa: I was like, I’m so glad we’re here. And like, seeing all the little kids and all the dogs, especially dressed up as bees, I was like, okay, this is amazing. And. And then I felt like, oh, so that, like, this is what kicks off. Okay, now it’s festival season. Like, now the tourist season has started and, you know, but we’re like, hooray. Now we live here. We get to be a part of it.

Lisa: No, don’t get me wrong. I’m still excited. But it is. It’s interesting that you have a different. You have a completely different experience in the winter versus the summer here. It’s like six months of the year are very calm and six months are very energetic.

Carisa: Yeah, no, I love these little festivals and the things that the town does, I think are amazing.

Lisa: Yeah, I agree! So this is a very random question, but because I have a psychologist here. One of the things I’ve always wanted to ask a psychologist is, you know, there are different psychologists or psychiatrists who have, TV shows or podcasts or things like that where they actually, you work with people on the air, in public. And I’ve always been curious of someone in that profession, what do you think about that? Like, do you think it’s, exploit. Exp. I can never say that word! Exploitative? Or do you think it’s helpful because it opens up the field to more people?

Carisa: Well, that’s a good question. My first reaction is, I hate it. And, you know, but when you say it, you know, but it also opens the field up to more people. And there’s probably some truth in that. You know, it’s interesting. I went to, oh, now I can’t remember her name, but there’s a woman who wrote a book, You Should Talk to Someone. And I have that book and I appreciated that she kind of talked about, you know, she talked about her own therapy as a psychologist and what it’s like to work with people and then be in therapy herself. And I thought that that book was really helpful. And I saw her at a conference, and she also does a radio show with somebody else. And so I got to witness a taping of that show. And I was really turned off after that, because I felt like the interventions were different on a radio show because of the time.

And so, you know, and they make this disclaimer of, well, this is for entertainment and it’s not, you know, and I’m sure there’s all kinds of disclaimers to kind of protect them from liability. And. But the reality is, to me, it felt like it made light of complex problems and it tried to simplify things because now you’ve got to do it within this timeframe. And we talked about it as a room of psychologist afterwards of like, well, you know, you recommended this and you ignored all these other things. And they were like, well, you know, we only have so much time. And so the recommendation for that particular show was for a couple and for them to separate, you know, and so there were lots of us that were like, but what about this and what about this and what about this? You know, and there’s so many other people affected. And so, like, this is the message that we’re sending out of, oh, it’s just too hard, or these are patterns that aren’t gonna change, and so just leave him? And so, like, to me, that’s like a horrible message to be sending out to the public at large.

Like, I feel like there’s too much of that. There’s too much cancel culture. There’s too much, oh, this is too hard. Or there’s too much labeling. It’s kind of like why I wanted to get out of the field and I hate diagnoses and all that, because I think when you label somebody and then people start listening with an ear to kind of fit into that, and again, they ignore the context, they ignore the situation. And instead of helping people learn to communicate better and learn how to work through difficult situations, that particular episode, their recommendation was just to leave. So that left a really big impact in my mind. And so I’m like, this is not helpful. This is to me, it’s another form of reality TV. But it’s like, but what’s the purpose if we’re taking people’s hardships and using them for entertainment? Like, that’s such the wrong message.

Lisa: It’s the real relationship with real people. Other real people are gonna see that and, you know, think they can apply that same thing. Interesting. And I’m so. I’m fascinated that you’ve had. You’ve even had the experience to go there and see this sort of thing in action. Because that is so. It’s so interesting to me because you want to be drawn to, like, advice columnists or, you know, how do you solve how do other people’s problems get solved? How can I try to solve my own? But getting back to that whole thing of, like, these are real people who have real lives, and you’re kind of boiling it down to this little entertainment show.

Carisa: Yeah.

Lisa: Cool. I’m glad I have you as my captive audience to hear about that! What things in the field or that you do now in your practice do you find, and this might be repetitive, but do you find more helpful than that sort of a conversation? Or what do you find is the most helpful way of working with people?

Carisa: I’ve been thinking about this a lot, you know, since I feel like since the move to Colorado, I’ve just been kind of redefining myself because it’s you coming here and giving up my license. I was like, okay, what do I want to be? I have this blank slate. How do I want to do that? So I’ve been thinking about what things have been important to me all the way through. And I, to me, I think the biggest thing is presence, like teaching people how to be present. And, you know, when I. And I was pretty active in Arizona and I was part of the Arizona Psychological Association, and I, you know, I did a lot of things professionally in that regard. And people would always say, oh, well, what’s your specialty?

That was another question I hated. And I was like, humans, humans are my specialty. Like, no, I don’t focus on CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, or I don’t focus on depression, or I don’t. Because people are more complex than that. And if you’re only using one technique, like, I love learning, and I’ve learned all kinds of different techniques because I’ve learned that different things work for different people. And even the same person, a different situation is going to call for something else.

So going back to what I think is important as presence, like, if you’re truly a hundred percent present with someone, then and sometimes they don’t need anything except a present listener. I mean, I find in a lot of my sessions with people, I actually say very little. You know, my job is to kind of listen to them talk and explore things out loud. And sometimes I can, I’ll summarize what they say, you know, in a sentence, but it’s really just a reflection back to them. And they’ll be like, yes, that’s it. So I help them, I just give them the space for them to clarify for themselves what’s going on. I’m not using a technique. I’m just being present with them.

And that is so lacking in our world, even in psychology. You, you would think like, but that’s what you’re supposed to do, you know. But I think people get too focused on these empirically validated treatments and manualized treatments or, oh, well, do you specialize in EMDR or, you know, whatever the latest flavor is. And I’m like, just be present with people and normalize their experience. You know, we’re all human beings and we all go through these things. They aren’t things to be pathologized or labeled. Like, we just sometimes need we need to help people out, human to human, or tell them that they’re not alone or just give them space to like, feel what they’re feeling and help them feel that.

Lisa: I like that a lot. That’s really beautiful. That’s really beautiful. And especially just with all of the distractions and everything in daily life, like, it is really rare to sit down and talk to people and really listen to people. So, yeah, I like that a lot.

Carisa: Yeah. Again, it brings me back to when we first came through Palisade, and when we were at Anita’s fruit stand and Ben and my husband were talking about the camper van that we were in, and they were talking about all these things. And so I was just shopping and then I started talking to Anita, and she told me, she’s like, Palisade is about having an experience. She’s like, you know, if you just want to have a transaction, you know, and have somebody check you out and not talk to you, go somewhere else, like, you know, but I’m here to, like, talk to people and interact with people. And I’ve heard that in different ways through other people I’ve talked about. And that’s one of the things, I think, that makes Palisade special. And that’s one of the things that makes this feel like an experience, because there’s kind of an invitation to slow down and actually talk to the person that you’re interacting with and be present with them and take the time to, like, be in the moment instead of trying to get to the next thing.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is probably the only place where I would go, well, I guess, because I know the people now, but, you know, even before I really knew people well, like, just go into a store and talk to people and not buy anything. So I’m like, I know I’m gonna come back and buy something later. But, yeah, I wouldn’t ever do that anywhere else. And that people are fine with that. They’re just like, oh, hey, how’s it going? Thanks for stopping by. Yeah. Interesting. I love that.

Carisa: When I think about who I am as a person, personally and professionally, is like, I want to help alleviate suffering in the world. And I think one of the ways that that happens, is through connection. And so. And I feel like, again, Palisade creates a perfect environment for that connection to happen and they inspire it through even, you know, people who just come here for a couple of days. The people who live here and own businesses here kind of invite people to slow down and to connect. And I feel like, as human beings, we all need each other and that that. And I think when we slow down and we have connection, then we’re worried less about material things, and then we get back in touch with what’s really important in life. And I think now, especially now, that’s a really helpful thing to remember and to promote.

Lisa: Absolutely. Yes. That is one of my passions, too, with this. With the, event list thing that I do with any, like, the bike group, I want to get people talking to each other. You know, I want to get people out of their bubbles and talking to each other and just it doesn’t even, you know, whatever they do, whatever they like to do, I don’t really care. It’s just like, get out and talk to people and, like, make some common ground. And it’s so important that people don’t just stay isolated at home watching TV, you know, or watching the news.

Carisa: Yeah, well, yeah, let’s get them away from their TVs.

Lisa: Right? For real.

Carisa: Because I feel like if you get out and you talk to somebody, I mean, it doesn’t take very long in talking to somebody to find something that you have in common, you know, but you have to look up from your phone and you have to get out of your house to do that. And, you know, it’s. It’s funny, when we came here a couple of years ago, and, you know, so then we, you know, we. We’d go out and talk to as many people as we could, and then we’re doing internet searches on Palisade. And so that’s when we came across Postcards from Palisade. And so we’re like, oh, my gosh, they have. There’s this cool thing. So we started listening to this podcast. You know, it was kind of this beacon to help us get back. And so it’s just. To me, it’s super cool that you started doing this and doing the event list and again, yeah, I feel like this is a place that kind of. Okay. And, like, what can I do to support and promote community? I mean, how freaking awesome is that?

Lisa: Just. I mean, and it’s like, I want to share what I love. And I really. I just really appreciate hearing from people who listen, especially when, you know, people like you and Marc who, you know, found it and learned about or used it as a way to learn about your new town. Like, I just love hearing that stuff. It makes me so happy. I’m like, that’s why I do this. It’s great.

Carisa: Well, thank you for doing it. I remember one of the first ones we listened to. I think you interviewed Rondo. So that’s been a. It’s probably been a couple years ago or maybe a year ago.

Lisa: I think maybe a year.

Carisa: And so we met Rondo, like, when we were. When we kind of hovered here for that first month, we went to one of the tourism advisory board meetings while we were here. It’s kind of what we do when we’re thinking about moving to a place. We go to the library. We try to go to, like, city or town council meetings just to kind of help get the feel, you know, of a place. And so then we talked to Rondo, and found out that, you know, he used to be a river runner. And of course, you know, we lived in Flagstaff for a while and Sedona. We’ve been. And we’ve rafted down the Grand Canyon so we’re just like, oh, that is so cool. And then when you did an interview him and we, like, we know him, we met him. So it kind of helped us feel connected. You know, and so, yeah, anyway, just another little plug. This has been a really fun podcast to listen to.

Lisa: I’m glad. And just to wrap up, I’m curious if you are accepting new clients, if people hear this and they, you know, want to reach out and talk to you, see if you’re a good fit to work with them, what’s the best way for people to reach out to you to get in touch?

Carisa: I still have a website that’s drcarisa.com, so d r c a r i s a dot com. So, that says a little bit about me. So it’ll give people a flavor. And then there’s and so my phone number is on there, but my phone number is also 928-215-1039. So if you go to the website, there’s a place where you can send an email automatically, you know, if that feels more comfortable. Or you can call and leave me a message. And usually I like to, you know, call people back and talk to them for like 20 or 30 minutes to kind of get a sense of what they’re looking for, you know, and then if it makes sense I’ll schedule a session and we’ll do a session together to see how that feels. And then we both decide together if it’s a good fit. And if it’s not, then, you know, I’ll help people find another avenue or somewhere to get them help.

Lisa: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me, and it’s really great to meet you. And I know we’re going to be running to each other around town.

Carisa: Oh, I hope so. Yeah, I know. I’m so happy to meet you, too. So thank you for this.

Lisa: Thank you.

Lisa: So what do you think – did we miss anything about why Palisade has such a draw? Or does this parallel your experience with our little town? If there’s anything we didn’t touch on, let me know at lisa(at)postcardsfrompalisade.com.

The podcast’s theme music is Riverbend by Geoff Roper.

Thanks for listening. With love, from Palisade.

Iriana Medina, Executive Director of La Plaza, explains how the H-2A visa program helps provide the seasonal agricultural labor for the valley’s farmers, orchardists, and grape growers. Migrant agricultural workers using the H-2A visa program are here legally. Listen to learn more about the H-2A program, what La Plaza does, and how you can get involved.  

Theme Music: Riverbend by Geoff Roper  

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Transcript:

Welcome to the Postcards From Palisade podcast. I’m Lisa McNamara. Palisade is most famous for its peaches, but there’s so much more happening in our little town. Join me as I chat with our community members to hear about how they are making Palisade a great place to live and visit.

What is the H-2A visa program and why is it so important for Palisade and the Grand Valley? Today, Iriana Medina, Executive Director of La Plaza,

Iriana: Hola. Hello.

Lisa: OK, looks good.

Iriana: OK.

joins me to talk about why this visa program is crucial to our town and how it helps provide the seasonal agricultural labor that meets the needs of the valley’s farmers, orchardists, and grape growers.

Migrant agricultural workers using the H-2A visa program are here legally. I wanted to chat with Iriana to understand more about the people the valley relies on to help harvest our crops and to clear up any misconceptions about these workers who play a crucial role in Palisade’s ecosystem.

Lisa: thank you so much for being here with me today.

Iriana: Of course, thank you, Lisa. my name is Iriana Medina and I am the Executive Director at La Plaza here in Palisade.

Lisa: I really appreciate you being here today and the main reason I reached out to you originally was to talk about migrant workers and the H-2A program and to get a little bit better understanding of that and how it works today. But before we jump right into that, I’d love to talk more about your role at La Plaza and what the organization does. anybody who’s been listening to this podcast for a while knows that I talked to Nelly Garcia, the former executive director, almost two years ago in episode number four about what she was working on at La Plaza. And at that time it was reorganizing, rebranding from Child and Migrant Services to La Plaza. So much has happened since then in the last two years. So as the current executive director, I’m curious about what your vision is for the organization, how you want to engage with the community and how you want the organization to support migrants and immigrants.

Iriana: Thank you. Yeah. So just like how you just mentioned in two years a lot have happened. and well, you mentioned Nelly. Nelly, our former director, is the person that envisioned La Plaza. Just because Child and Migrant Services had a lot of names and there wasn’t a unified name or a way to identify one place. So she made the rebranding happen. And with the rebranding, the mission and vision of the organization expanded. I wouldn’t say it changed. I would say it expanded because like you’re saying, we have been known to be the entity that takes care of the migrant workers for 67 years. Then at year 67 is when the rebranding started to happen and with this game changer idea that Nelly had. And yes, we’re still taking care of the migrant workers. That’s the core of the organization still and it’s the core of this town. But we also wanted to be there for families that live in the valley too. Not just in Palisade, but in the valley.

Basically what we did was like I said, expand in our services and because many of the families that were migrant workers became immigrants. So they were migrant families that decided to stay at some point and they had La Plaza to be their peer of guidance and the place that they would come to still get food supplies from the food pantry and clothing from the migrant thrift store and things like, and other services too. Navigation services, guidance on how to, where to go if I need to renew a driver’s license, how to get an appointment for the DMV, that kind of thing. The need of being open year round was there and we also. So it kind of like organically merged to taking care of migrant to taking care of immigrants too. So this was a necessity just because we, the Child and Migrant Services was already doing that taking care of immigrants that one point were migrants. And so we weren’t including them in our mission. So that’s why it evolved to what it is now.

Lisa: I noticed that La Plaza is hosting more events now. Like there’s the tamale making class, there’s the food services courses, there’s the English conversation group. So how do all those things fit into how you want La Plaza to kind of be a part of the community?

Iriana: Yeah, exactly. this kind of activities just foster community. You just said it. So basically incorporating our migrant and immigrant community into activities that would encourage exchange, culture, values, customs, way of living and make it a whole. This country is made out of multiple cultures. This country is made out of, forged by immigrants of all origins. And so we basically were seeing the need of making it normal, making it a, like a habitual thing to have activities where folks from different cultures were just unite and I believe it’s a way of promoting peace too because understanding the culture of other people different than yours and living it, living it somehow, whether it’s through cooking tamales or having a concert with music that is different from what you’re used to, then you have a taste of it and kind of like get used to it and incorporate it hopefully to what your normal for a person would be. So basically it comes down to empowering, mixing cultures and having people be okay with being surrounded by something that’s different.

Lisa: Appreciating the culture. So I recently spoke with I don’t know if you know JoAnn Rasmussen. She’s the chair of the Palisade Historical Society. So I recently spoke with JoAnn about migrant labor in the past. So, you know, who were these people who came to work in Palisade around the harvest and the past, like before the 1960s and you know, I think what’s interesting is like, in that time, like up until the 1960s, there was a migrant camp, and there was a migrant camp in Riverbend park. And there was actually an area supported to housing migrants. There were community services as part of that park. you know, there’s all of this support system kind of in place there, provided by people who lived there, local residents, you know, churches, other local organizations.

And it seems like when, you know, late 1960s, that changed where, the park was forced to be disbanded. It definitely was not, you know, sanitary. They didn’t have like, running water, things like that. Very important things. And at that time, the farm owners were then expected to house their migrant workers. And things started shifting about where people came from. Basically what I was thinking about listening to that, that function that La Plaza provides to people who come here to work or people who move here, after coming here to work, is that community center that used to be provided in one way. And so it’s just really interesting to me that it became more of like an individualized thing for the farm owners to actually have to house their own workers, we lost that kind of communal support system. And it just makes me think that really La Plaza is that place now, that center where everyone can come to be together instead of being separated out.

Iriana: Yeah, well, the legislation around H-2A workers have changed over the years. And so, and that’s why at this point, we only have migrant workers. Back in the day, we used to have migrant families. And so that’s how it all started out, some wives of some of the local growers seeing the need in the fields families and entire families, including kids, underage kids, waiting for the parents to finish their journey in harsh conditions, whether it was snow, rain, or sun, heat. And so yes, it started out as an organization or just a community effort thing. And it evolved to become a nonprofit at some point. But, yeah, the beginning, it was about providing the basic needs of services of basic needs for these families. Like, and that’s why the name was Child and Migrant Services. Because the first of all the specifically for kids of these families that were in the fields with their parents while they were working. So there was a need of child care and then other services.

So migrant services. What does a migrant need? So they, they need clothing depending on the season. They need a food pantry. So let’s get a food pantry. There was a food pantry still. There still is. But that, that is not our main thing right now because we have evolved from basic services to now empowering people. So it’s, it’s all about making a platform so they could feel safe, so they could feel like they belong. And if, if it’s a brand new person say that there is a young adult that started coming as an H-2A worker, I’ve seen them. It’s, it’s a scary thing. You know they even though they’re men and they’re around men only, for a young kid it could be intimidating definitely. Just the work itself. Just being in a place where I don’t speak the language that everyone else speaks outside of the orchard and where do I go if I need to go to the bank, how do I open a bank account, and things like that. So those are overwhelming questions and things that could go through a young adult mind once they start coming here. Those guys that have been coming here for 8 years, 10 years, 15 years, 30 years we have, we see people at La Plaza that have been coming for over 30 years to serve this community and they have it more clear although they keep coming to us because of this sensation of being surrounded by people that is just like them. That will provide them with the information they need and anything that they need to do. And that feels good on our end because that’s what we’re here for. For people to feel confident, safe, and to be in a place that they belong.

Lisa: That’s so important because like I mean I can’t if you. I picture myself going somewhere to work where I don’t know anybody, I don’t have any friends, I don’t speak the language just even. It’s a really scary thought. So yeah knowing that there’s a place to go to have resources would be really important.

Iriana: And the good thing is that there is a cooperative sense of acting or being around the orchard workers because they encourage brand new people to come to us and to yeah to come to us for resources. And so that feels, that feels good. I mean it’s a recommendation, a word of mouth recommendation. And so we’re very happy to know, that some of these people are encouraged to come to us when they’re. Especially when they’re new in the area.

Lisa: How are you preparing for this upcoming season at La Plaza?

Iriana: At La Plaza, we’re educating our people on their rights. So we are an organization that serves migrants and immigrants. And this year we have been working really hard on educating our community what their rights are as an immigrant. Because everyone, even if it’s a not undocumented immigrant, have rights in the amendments in the Constitution of the United States. The Constitution of the United States and its amendments are good for US citizens and immigrants too. So we are educating them around this and we are letting them know what are the specific amendments that will protect them in any possible case of facing an immigrant officer. And we’re equipping them with what we call a ‘know your rights’ card. It has the amendments that protects them and it also has what’s called the magic words. And basically the magic words are questions that they could ask an officer like, have I done something wrong, am I good to go? Things like that.

Lisa: So it fits into the broader picture of empowering people. So you’re empowering people to know their rights and exercise them.

Iriana: correct again. La Plaza, the focus of La Plaza have shift to empowering the community that we serve. And whether, like I said, whether it is through an activity to do with the general community, the opportunity for them to share a story or their background or what they cook at home and/or for them to know their rights, which is, it’s a basic need but at the same time it’s a tool that could empower someone.

Lisa: So for you, what’s your background or like, how did you get to this position? What made you interested in working in this field?

Iriana: I am an immigrant myself. I’ve always been around nonprofits. I’ve always worked for nonprofits volunteering for many years. I volunteer for an organization called AFS which is American Field Services. It’s an exchange student program. And I was an exchange student once. And when, when I came back to my country, I started working for them as a volunteer and I volunteered there for ten years. I’m originally from Venezuela and in Venezuela I finished school for HR, so I got a masters in human resources. And my family in Venezuela are farmers. I come from a state where, farming is big as long as oil. But my family were focused on farming and working the land and having cattle and things like that.

So, I’ve been around farm workers my whole life and this kind of programs and organizations to support workers that work in the field doesn’t exist in Venezuela. So when I saw this, I just loved it. I, when I first applied to work for La Plaza, I applied for the coordination and community engagement coordination. And I got it and I, was very excited. It was a very exciting news when I heard that I, when they called me and offered me the position. So I’ve been doing this, from the love of my heart because I’m working with people that are just like me, an immigrant just like me and people that work in the fields.

Back in, back home, I was born and raised in the city. I come from a city of 3 million people. So it’s Maracaibo. Maracaibo is the second largest city after Caracas. And my, the farms of my family were in the country of my home state. And so I used to ride five hours to the town where my mother was born, which is where the farms of my family are, still are. and I would go there two times or three times a year because I needed to get out of the city. I mean I love, I love my hometown dearly, but I had to go back to the country as many times as I could just to take a break from the city. And I just love, I just love town life. I just love slow paced town lifestyle. So this, this was just a perfect fit for me, really.

Lisa: Yeah, it’s like a perfect combination of everything. And you’re doing awesome work. It just seems like you’re really, just stepped into the role and you’re really thriving in it.

Iriana: Thank you. I’m in a very, steep learning curve right now and I try to keep it humble. I know what I can bring to the table. And this, even though this was a challenging position for me, I knew consciously the challenge I was embracing. And the people that I’m serving, they can be sure that I am doing the best I can as a person, as a professional and as a service provider.

Lisa: I love that. I mean, that’s kind of the best we can do, right?

Iriana: Yeah, exactly.

Lisa: Let’s get into the main reason that I wanted to talk to you, which is to just get a better understanding of what the H-2A program is. We were at a lunch and learn a few months ago and I think I felt like a couple of the questions that people were asking, after the main presentation, it did feel like there are a few people in the room and probably just because of what they did, but you know, they just didn’t know what the H-2A program was. And I think if you’re not maybe directly tied into a farm or farm owner or a relative or somebody who works on a farm you might not really have a good idea of. They might not be as visible to you of what happens here and how important this program is to the farm owners in the town of Palisade. So, can you just talk about what the H-2A program is and then we can get into kind of what the steps are that it involves.

Iriana: Yeah. So H-2A, it’s the name of the visa. It’s an acronym basically. I know that A stands for agriculture. And so, yeah, H-2A is the name of the visa that these individuals come to the country with to work in the agriculture. In the fields. So they get granted anywhere in between three, six, to nine months, out of the year to be able to work in a farm, for this amount of time, with all the legal settings that it includes. So they do file taxes, pay taxes. They don’t get tax benefits though, because of the nature of the visa. But they do pay taxes for sure. So the growers need to put a notice out. Like. Is this called file? No, hold on. It’s when you put a notification for an ad.

Lisa: You put. Let’s see. Sorry. like a job posting.

Iriana: Job posting. That’s the word.

Lisa: Yeah. So they need to post their job to, they need to post it publicly.

Iriana: Yes. So the growers need to do a job posting here in the US, calling out for farm workers. They have to do this every year and they need to show proof that they have done the due diligence to be able to hire people here. So then they need to show that there was no interest and that they need to get labor from abroad to be able to operate their farms.

Lisa: I think one of the points you made too is that they have to actively recruit US workers. So it’s not like this, it’s not just like this paperwork thing. Like they don’t just post the job, take it down after a day and say, oh, sorry, nobody applied, oops. They actually have to actively try to recruit people. So it’s not, it’s not just to check the box. It’s like you actually have to try to find people that can work for you.

Iriana: Yeah. Yes. And that usually doesn’t happen. And the retention rates are pretty low when it comes down to having American workers in the fields. And so that’s why they relay so heavily in this H-2A program. So they need to go through the Department of Labor and get a certification to be able to go through the USCIS and be able to bring workers from abroad. Most of these individuals are from Mexico. And I believe it has to do with the proximity because they are the neighbors.

Lisa: but they could be from anywhere.

Iriana: But they could, they could be from anywhere. But here in Palisade most of them are Mexican citizens that come under the H-2A program. So then they have to go through this bureaucratic paperwork and fee thing. Usually there is, I believe there is like an agency back in some cities, main cities in Mexico and so they recruit people over there and then they have to go over to the US Embassy, sign their visas. They have like an interview process and signing process. They put their fingerprints, and then they, they’re good to come. And so they, many, most of them come in a bus or in a van and they ride all the way from their homes to Palisade. So that’s, that’s, that is. It sounds easy but it’s a very tedious process and, and a very time-consuming and money-consuming thing to do.

Lisa: Yeah, I know there’s kind of like a love hate relationship with it with for farm owners because it’s a great program but it’s also a lot of work.

Iriana: And then the regulations back to comparing to what it used to be and to what it is right now. Back in the day the growers didn’t have to provide with housing or any of the stuff that they do have to provide now. So they come and live in trailer homes within the premises of the property of the orchards. And so they pretty much live where they work. And this has to be, this is one of the regulations and the things that the program makes the growers do and it is provide housing for the people that they’re going to be bringing.

Lisa: I believe they also have to provide like a standard wage too. They can’t just you know, can’t pay less than what a minimum wage would be for that type of work.

Iriana: Yeah, correct.

Lisa: And then meals, transportation and just working conditions that meet federal and state standards.

Iriana: Yeah, there’s usually a van in each orchard. And so they usually there is scheduled times where they go out to town and they do grocery shopping or other errands that they have to do. And so other than that they will have to find a way to get out of the farm. And so that’s why we had, one of our programs is the bike lending program.

Lisa: I love it. So you don’t feel isolated. Like if even just you know again thinking about myself I would feel isolated. So just the fact that you’ll have that option for people to rent a bike and it’s for. I mean it’s lending for the season. Right. If they sign up.

Iriana: It really is lending program. It’s not renting. We lend them and we maintain them. We do the services. So once they. We have a volunteer that comes and makes a maintenance on the bikes and when they get here all the bikes are pretty much ready to go and to be ridden. And we are so happy and proud and excited about this program because we just love to see them around on the weekends when there’s a day off. Usually you could see them in town whether it’s in the laundromat or at the park or sometimes at the store. And they even go out to Clifton. They don’t stay here. They go out to places.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah. And just to have that freedom and flexibility is great because again that there’s a certain basic minimum that the farm owners have to do. But then beyond that just think about like just for the quality of your life. You know, you want to have that sense of freedom in your time off. So I love that program.

Iriana: Exactly. And that’s empowering too just for a person to have the freedom to go down to the river, I don’t know, to throw rocks in the river, just to watch the geese flying and landing in the river. I mean I just. Just leisure time, time time for yourself. It’s. It’s detrimental for the well being of a human being.

Lisa: Absolutely. Yeah so that’s a lot of steps in the process. And then even once they have hired workers they still have to show and prove that they’re complying with all the standards. The farm owners have to show that they’re complying with all the standards.

Iriana: It is a very taxing program for the growers. I have no doubt of that.

Lisa: Yeah. About how many H-2A visas do we typically have here in Palisade? Average?

Iriana: Anywhere around 400 to 500. It can vary depending on many things. You know some people sell their farms, some people, you know, and then climate change is the thing that, that takes place in this decision too on how many people we’re bringing.

Lisa: Sure, yeah. Some years there’s a huge crop, some years there’s less. And then right as it, the farmer is going to know what they’re go going to need each year. So that makes sense. But that’s a lot of people. 400 to 500 average.

Iriana: I believe that most of them have kind of like in their numbers down. For the amount of trees that they’re going to be taken care of. So.

Lisa: So obviously we still. There are other people working the fields too. There’d be other workers who live here. But what would the impact be to Palisade this if like the H-2A program was changed or eliminated?

Iriana: Well, I hope this program stays intact because we all depend on it. Not just growers, but the town. Like you could probably feel and see that whenever the harvest system is over, everything pretty much goes dormant. And, and so that’s how important it is. It is for the sake not just of the growers, but for everyone around this town because, and I would say the county because the economy of this area relies heavily on the agriculture. And so it is a very important thing that everyone should be taking care of and supporting.

Lisa: So how can anybody in the community who wants to get involved to help. Like what’s the best way for people to help support your mission?

Iriana: Supporting La Plaza, there’s many different ways to do it. So one way to support La Plaza is through donations. There is a site on our website, laplazapalisade.org. People can donate money through the website. Another way to support La Plaza is coming in and volunteering for us. Whether it is to help make tamales or helping the food pantry make sure the pantry is organized, clean and stock. We have what we call resource dinners during the harvest season and this is pretty much an open house. So we we have a chef volunteer that is pretty much the head of the kitchen and we love her dearly because she’s the person who actually makes the tamales, the fundraising with the tamales happen.

Lisa: Give a shout out to Chef Lynn.

Iriana: Yeah, shout out Lynn. So she makes these dinners happen too. And we feed anywhere in between 50 to 80 people at a time. And this dinners take place once a month starting in April all the way until September. And this is a very fun and enjoyable way to come to La Plaza and see La Plaza in action. Like we love our resource dinners because it feels like a party even though it is not. It’s an activity where agencies of the town that provide with other services that we don’t have. They come and present themselves in a very casual way. Very like, you know, in a very comfortable setting. Sharing a meal and having a very casual conversation over a meal about what they do and what services they provide and they can connect directly with the clients or potential clients to provide these services. And it’s just fun. It’s, it’s nice. They come many of the times the workers come right after they finish their journey and it’s nice for them to provide a very delicious dinner made by a chef. I mean it’s gourmet. It’s a gourmet meal. You know, like it’s a way to pamper them too somehow, and giving back a little bit of thank you. It’s a way to say thank you pretty much too.

Lisa: And if there’s anything specific thing because I know a lot of the times people ask, oh I have this to drop off or do you need a bike or do you need so and so.

Iriana: Well, many times we put notifications out and this usually happens through Facebook. And by the way, we have two Facebook pages. One is called La Plaza Staff and the other one is called La Plaza Palisade. And through Facebook we make notes sometimes or flyer sometimes whenever someone comes and say, I need to borrow a wheelchair. Things like that. So we get random requests at times and like for example, like a couple of weeks ago we put a notification out because there was a family who was transitioning from the Pathway shelter, family shelter to a house. And so it’s a family that had nothing. And so they came to us saying, do you think you guys can help us getting mattresses? These things or. The list was long. And we’re like, okay, we can give you some vouchers so you can get some stuff from the thrift store next door to us. And then the rest, big things like mattresses and stuff like that. We could put a notification so whomever has a spare mattress that can give to you guys. Then we just connect them that way.

Lisa: Is that usually on the La Plaza staff page or is it. Or could it be in both?

Iriana: It could be in both. We try to post on both sites. We’re still working on our how to manage all our social media stuff.

Lisa: Oh yeah, that’s like an ongoing thing.

Iriana: It’s getting better, but we’re still working on it. Since the rebranding we are still in a very growing process or journey in terms of taking care of immigrants. Like I said, the migrants are the core of La Plaza. But we need to think also around the other immigrants that live in the valley and that bring value to different industries. The hospitality industry, housekeepers, people that work in Airbnbs, motels, hotels. The construction industry relies heavily on immigrant labor. People doing roofing, cement. These kind of jobs are done by immigrants.

Lisa: And there’s a huge demand, growing demand for all of that, all of those services in the Grand Valley.

Iriana: This town is growing. Not just Palisade, but in Mesa County, Grand Junction. It’s growing faster than what we can grasp, I think and that what we can think of. So I don’t think that people, many people see Grand Junction like a small town or a big town. It is not a town anymore. It’s a city. And, hopefully we can all merge happily with knowing that growth brings diversity and that there is that diversity makes everything better, enriches everything, because it’s what brings all the nuances and all the different colors and foods and opportunities and all kinds of goodies, good things comes with, diversity. So hopefully everyone in this area embraces and gets encouraged with the growth that we’re having, because I don’t think it’s going to stop. And so we are, and we as La Plaza, we want to be the beam of light and guidance for every immigrant in the valley. And really anyone that can come and that wants to come and join us in this journey, we’re happy, we’re welcoming, we have our arms open to anybody that want to be part of us and our mission.

Lisa: Yeah. And I can personally attest to that too. Thank you so much for being here with me today and sharing the information. And I’m just looking forward to seeing you grow and seeing what else you have, what else you do with La Plaza, because I think it’s going to be really exciting.

Iriana: Yeah, we’re excited. I am very excited. I’m very happy too, where we’re at right now, despite everything, you know, it’s. I mean, there’s always gonna be shitty things happening. So you just need to focus and pivot towards what is good for the community and for yourself. Because there’s always gonna be antagonists that are gonna. Party poopers.

Lisa: I love that. And it’s so true. It’s so true.

Iriana: thanks.

Lisa: Here’s another way you can easily support La Plaza – this Saturday, April 26, Peach Street Distillery is hosting a nonprofit day, where 10% of their bar sales for the day will be donated to La Plaza.

There’s a question that Iriana poses on La Plaza’s website: “If the fruits and vegetables that we eat are a tribute of dedication and love, can we return this into tribute of grateful gratitude to those working in the American fields?” https://www.laplazapalisade.org/articles

In the Palisade of the past, there must have always been those who weren’t happy about the presence of “outsiders” in their community, but the impression that has made its way into our shared history and that is remembered today is one of gratitude. I can only assume that today’s workers will be viewed in the same way by those looking back in the future. But we can’t appreciate what we don’t know. So if you want to know more, get in touch with the awesome people at La Plaza.

The podcast’s theme music is Riverbend by Geoff Roper.

Thanks for listening. With love (and gratitude), from Palisade.

JoAnn Rasmussen, Chair of the Palisade Historical Society, takes a deep dive into how past generations of farmers and orchardists in Palisade and the Grand Valley met their ever-present need for seasonal agricultural workers.

We might sometimes feel isolated from international and national events here in Palisade, but the seasonal labor sources for this town have always been driven by outside circumstances. Listen to learn about the fascinating range of people who helped bring Palisade’s agricultural products to market.

Theme Music: Riverbend by Geoff Roper  

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Transcript:

Welcome to the Postcards From Palisade podcast. I’m your host, Lisa McNamara.

Today we’re taking a look back at a unique part of Palisade’s past with JoAnn Rasmussen, Chair of the Palisade Historical Society.

JoAnn returns to the podcast to take us on a deep dive into how past generations of farmers and orchardists in Palisade and the Grand Valley met their ever-present need for seasonal agricultural workers. Hear about who filled these roles, how and why these populations changed over time, and the impact these individuals had on Palisade.

Our conversation owes a huge debt of gratitude to the late Ron Jaynes, longtime Palisade resident, writer, and historian. To quote from Ron’s obituary: “The pride, interest and knowledge [Ron] had of the Grand Valley was vast and his nostalgia was charming and sincere.” Which you’ll soon hear for yourself! 

We also owe a big thanks to Priscilla Walker, current Vice Chair and founding chair of the Palisade Historical Society, for her wealth of knowledge about Palisade.

We might sometimes feel isolated from international and national events here in Palisade, but the seasonal labor sources for this town have always been driven by these outside circumstances.

Keep listing to learn about the fascinating range of people who have helped bring Palisade’s agricultural products to market on today’s Postcard from Palisade.

Lisa: If you could just say something as a test.

JoAnn: Testing, testing. This is JoAnn Rasmussen.

Lisa: Perfect.

JoAnn: Coming to you live from the offices of Lisa McNamara and the Postcards from Palisade.

Lisa: Love it. Yeah, so like we were saying already, both of us have voices that are a little under the weather from. For me, thanks to seasonal allergies and the lovely smoke in the air.

JoAnn: Yep.

Lisa: So we might sound a little different than last time, but really appreciate you coming back and being here again.

JoAnn: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me back. This is fun. I like to do this. Anything that’s history involved and I can do some research and impart knowledge and share things. It’s really pretty cool.

Lisa: Well, I love that. so yeah, today we’re talking about something more, a little more focused than last time. But, a couple months ago I was at a presentation that Priscilla had given to the chamber of commerce members. It was like a lunch and learn. It was all about peaches and orchards and peach farming in Palisade. And she had made this comment that was like, Palisade has always been dependent on labor from outside the Grand Valley. And that really made me want to just dig into this a little bit more and understand, you know, what that meant, why and, just to learn a little bit more about it. So I thought JoAnn would be a great person to start with.

JoAnn: Yay. Well, no, it’s a great question. So Palisade is known for its peaches and its fruit trees. And fruit trees produce one crop each year and the work is seasonal. So for most of the year you wouldn’t need all of those workers. But especially back in the late 1800s, early 1900s, they would need 4,000 to 6,000 people for two to three weeks in August. And with a population of less than a thousand, you’re not going to find the workforce here. Now to be fair, everyone who lived in Palisade and knew, knew someone that worked on the orchards, worked in the orchards, even little kids. So this is before child labor laws and all of that.

And Priscilla Walker is the founding chair of the Palisade Historical Society. She talks about her first job was being a box girl when she was, I think it was five or six. And the incredible thing to think about in an economy like that and with the workforce like that is, every single job was incredibly important. You needed to have the box girl, you needed to have the packers, you needed to have the pickers, you needed to have all of those things fall into place. And for two to three weeks in August, thousands of people were needed to do that.

Lisa: So it’s just physically impossible.

JoAnn: Physically impossible.

Lisa: Even if every single. Every single person came out and worked, you still would be short.

JoAnn: Exactly. You would still be short. When you asked me to research this, and I love researching this, and I love talking about topics that I know all the information off the top of my head, but I also love researching things. And I found a manuscript that we actually have for donation at the Palisade Historical Society that was written by a man named Ron Jaynes, and his last name is J A Y N E S. And he has since passed away. He passed away in 2016. He wrote this first manuscript in March of 2008, and then we did a special edition in October of 2010. And he talks about how there was a unique set of workers that Palisade had during a certain timeframe in the United States that most people don’t even know existed here. And I’m sorry if I’m jumping ahead in the questions that you’re going to ask me, but would you like to know more information about that?

Lisa: Yeah. What I think would be interesting is to talk about who were these people? Because I know that, like you said, there was a specific group that we’re going to talk about, but there were different groups that kind of came in and helped out over the years. And is. I think it’s really interesting how it shifted from maybe like, where did it start?

JoAnn: Right. So that’s a great question. A lot of the workers that came here were white. They were Caucasian, they were migrant workers in that they followed the different migrant streams in the United States. So, back in the late 1900s, I had a job in Des Moines, Iowa, and I worked with migrant farm workers. And there’s, a migrant stream, and you can look it up online. The migrant stream of the United States and where they travel based on what’s being planted and cultivated and then harvested. And back in the early days for Palisade, most of those workers came from other parts of the United States, and they would migrate here during peach season because they knew the work would be here, the money would be here to do that, and then they would move on and do other types of things. Now, current, modern day. Well, and even back in the from the 40s to the 60s we had migrant camps here in Palisade. And at a certain point it switched to workers from Mexico or Central America, South America. But it’s interesting because a lot of times when people hear migrant workers, they don’t think about they just don’t think about them being citizens of the United States that have just moved from place to place to pick fruit.

Lisa: Yeah. Interesting. And that’s really how it started. Right. Dustbowl. Like people started their own farms, couldn’t necessarily support themselves.

JoAnn: Right.

Lisa: And you just start moving to where the work was.

JoAnn: Right. Or you would get people that were in trades, like teachers that would have the summers off and that type of thing.

Lisa: Interesting. Okay. So then moving to this unique group.

JoAnn: Ron Jaynes grew up in Palisade, in the Palisade area. And like I said, this is his manuscript. And it’s absolutely fascinating. It’s available for donation, a $5 donation at the Palisade History Museum. And if I can plug the history museum?

Lisa: Please.

JoAnn: We are at 3740 G Road. We’re down, near the corner of Elberta and the north Frontage road for Highway 6. It’s at 3740 G Road and we’re open Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday from 10 to 2 or by appointment.

And we actually have a couple displays in the museum about the migrant camps that were there. The CCC camp that was there and then the CCC camp actually was converted to house German prisoners of war. And this manuscript by Ron Jaynes, it’s written really, really well. And he talks about how, in fact, if I could read this, this little section, if that’s okay. So these are the words of Ron Jaynes. It’s called pre-war years in western Colorado.

“In the 1930s and early 1940s, Western Colorado agriculture production was flourishing and the recruitment of labor to grow and harvest those crops was a significant task. There were fruit crops, tomato crops, sugar beat crops and grain crops in the Grand Valley all in need of laborers to produce bountiful crops and harvest. From Palisade to Clifton to Grand Junction and west onto the Redlands and Fruita area, there were fruit crops.

“To illustrate the intensity of just harvesting the peach crop in the Grand Valley, consider that in a full crop season, over 1 million bushels of peaches had to be harvested, packed and shipped in about a two week period. During this hectic time, one could hardly walk on the sidewalks in the town of Palisade due to the people congestion. Throughout the day and night in Palisade, Clifton and Grand Junction there were farm trucks and over the road trucks competing for the roadways, the parking spaces and loading and unloading commitments. There was a constant day and night activity of railroad steam engines assembling loaded ice cooled refrigerator cars into trains and replacing them with fresh empties. The large packing sheds often worked nearly all night long to clear their docks and unloading areas for repeating the same procedures the next day.”

Let’s see. “In the lower valley Fruita area there were sugar beets, row crops and processing tomatoes grown also on critical harvesting schedules. In the area around Delta and Montrose, sugar beets, grain crops, potatoes and processing tomatoes were grown. Cedaredge, Hotchkiss and Paonia grew cherries, peaches, pears and apples. All growers shared the common plight of needing labor to complete successful years. Adequate labor was a large problem and the need was pressing to just meet demand without any additional complications.

“A large complication was looming in the not too distant future.” And then he goes on to say, “I was born in 1940, living in Clifton on the same property where my father was born and a fourth generation member of Western Colorado Families. Just over one year later, the United States entered into World War II as a result of being attacked at Pearl Harbor by the Japanese. Many of the earliest memories of my life involve World War II because the southern boundary of our family farm was also the northern boundary of the Denver and Rio Grande railroad right of way. I well remember coal fired steam engines pulling flat cars, box cars and passenger cars loaded with the essentials of war. Tanks, half tracks, artillery pieces, trucks, jeeps, munitions and troops. It now seems probable that all these trains also transported German prisoners of war while all of this seemed pretty exciting to me, and my older brother John, I best remember the tears coming into the eyes of our mother with each troop train that passed.”

Lisa: That’s gonna choke me up too.

JoAnn: And now JoAnn is teary, so.

Lisa: Oh, no. that’s really interesting. Like, yeah, different experiences. A kid versus the parent. Picturing her kids there.

JoAnn: The adult. Yeah so there were.

Lisa: We can take a minute.

JoAnn: Take a break? No, it’s fine.

Lisa: It’s really sad.

JoAnn: yeah, so. And he writes really well and it talks about how, “history relates that 1943 was a significant year in the events of World War II, with the German war machine encountering great resistance to their once dominating advances. Stalingrad was surrendered to the Russians and Rommel’s troops in North Africa were defeated by the Allies. For the most part, Russia held all of their German captives.” And so it goes on to talk about. He talks about how the German prisoners of war, let’s see here. He talks about, “Over 450,000 prisoners of war were transported and placed into about 500 separately located camps across the United States. 15,000 POWs were brought into Colorado and located at three principal base camps located near Greeley, Colorado Springs and Trinidad, with 47 satellite camp locations across the state.

“About 1,250 POWs drawn from those were quartered at the Trinidad camp were brought into three Mesa county satellite camps, one in Delta, one in Montrose, and one in Palisade,” which is where modern day Riverbend Park is, which was on the eastern end of the park. And there’s really no remnants that you can see. And I brought some pictures, to show you. They were buildings that were put up and then dismantled and taken away. And the sides of them were canvas, so they weren’t quite tents and they weren’t yurts, but they looked like buildings. And I can show you. I can show you that if you were to look at them from the aerial photos, they just look like really long barracks and buildings, but they were kind of made of canvas with a wood floor and a regular roof.

Lisa: So it wasn’t. They weren’t necessarily moving into the CCC camp that was already existing. Sounds like.

JoAnn: Right

Lisa: okay, so it was a separate thing.

JoAnn: Because already that had already closed by the time, you know, by the time the war started. And he also talks about, so this is an interesting thing to visualize if you’re familiar with Palisade and what Palisade looks like. So, “in 1944, on a warm August Sunday between 11 and 11:30am, a passenger train rolled into a stop at the railroad depot in Palisade, an estimated 80 US Army personnel were the first to exit the train. Then an approximate count of 250 German prisoners of war disembarked and lined up four abreast. Flanked by the army personnel, the march began on Second Street to Main Street, then south toward Eighth Street. The sidewalks were lined with anticipating townsfolk of all ages, and the army guards were closing each intersection as the marching column proceeded.

“Sitting at the curb on the corner of Main Street and Third Street, watching the passing POWs, was teenager George Distefano, along with his pals Jim Vancil, Johnny Spangler and Pete Trujillo. George recalls that as the POWs marched, many were singing reportedly at the top of their lungs, while quite a few were quiet and appearing to be very uncertain as to their fate. George cannot explain why this would be so memorable to him as he tells of his simple and distinct memory of a POW looking to the side and studying a local man taking a drink of water from the outside fountain across from the Palisade Bank.

“As the POW newcomers to town marched along, a unique event, unlikely ever to be repeated was now cast into our western Colorado and local history. Replication of this same experience was being etched into the historical account of many locations across the width and length of the entire United States. Sunday services were being held at the Palisade Baptist Church with windows opened wide to chase a breeze through the church, and the marching column passed directly alongside and beneath those windows. Both Sharon Keeney (Wertz) and Leroy Wertz were in attendance. Both reported that the Germans were singing loudly. Both reported that services were delayed, and both told of how long the delays seemed to be after the powerful singing of the POWs had dimmed and the services were continued.

“Harry C. Talbott, about 10 years of age, was also in attendance at the Baptist church. Recalling the interruption of services, Harry described his bewilderment at watching the POWs marching in goosestep, the classic German military march step that he had witnessed for the very first time. The column of POWs and Army personnel proceeded to 8th Street, then toward the river bottom land where the once CCC camp, now suddenly a German prisoner of war camp, was located.”

And then, it says, “as reported by Harold Zimmerman in his article, ‘Harvesting Peaches with German Prisoners of War,’ printed in Mesa State College’s Journal of the Western Slope, sometime around 1980, the structures and grounds had not been maintained and had not been prepared for the POW occupancy. The POWs immediately began the task and by nightfall the facility was habitable.”

Lisa: Wow, that’s amazing.

JoAnn: they built it.

Lisa: Yeah. So 250 people came in.

JoAnn: They specifically came to help with harvest because our men were over there fighting and or had been captured. These men were prisoners of war and we needed labor. So they, they were sent here.

Lisa: And these are just regular people, right? These are just like, a regular everyday person.

JoAnn: They are so. Yeah. In fact, he talks some more in the manuscript about how a lot of them were teenagers. Teenagers, early 20s. Because by the time. By the point of time in the war when this was, the older men had been killed.

Lisa: Wow.

JoAnn: And so these were the men who were forced to fight for their country to do what they were doing. They weren’t the masterminds of the war. They weren’t. They weren’t the violent offenders. They weren’t. Not that…

Lisa: anybody in a war is somewhat violent.

JoAnn: but you know what I mean, they were. They were the equivalent of our guys that were captured and being held over there. And there’s another really funny. A really funny story. Oh. But before I get to that, they were actually paid. The POWs were paid.

Lisa: Oh really?

JoAnn: So, “one of the articles of the Geneva convention allowed that POWs could be utilized as labor source for the hosting country with an exception noting that officers could not be forced to do labor but at their discretion could work if they chose. The standard pay for a POW day of labor was 80 cents. payable by the United States government in either ‘canteen script’ or into individual savings accounts. The United States government was then to be compensated by the growers or employers at a rate commensurate to the prevailing pay rate for the job function.” And so they would be paying. They would be paying the people who came anyway. So in essence they’re paying the POWs to work. But it’s going through the United States government for them paying the POWs to work.

Lisa: Okay. So they weren’t paying in addition.

JoAnn: They weren’t paying in addition.

Lisa: Okay.

JoAnn: They were paying what they would have normally paid.

Lisa: what’s 80 cents then. What do you think that would be now?

JoAnn: I don’t know. I would have to look that up.

Lisa: I feel like I want to Google that What year was that? I want to Google it real quick.

JoAnn: So this would be 1944, I think.

Lisa: 1944 today. Live Google.

JoAnn: Yeah, 1944. We’ll ask the oracle.

Lisa: $14.50.

JoAnn: A day.

Lisa: Yeah, a day. Not a lot of money.

JoAnn: Not a lot of money. But better than nothing. And when you think of prisoners of war, you think of, you know, people in a chain breaking rocks with, you know, at that time. And they were treated really well. They really were treated. They were treated well. So this section talks a little bit more about the payment. So, “Larry Clark, then a teenager, was involved with his family fruit harvest and reports that they did provide some additional lessons in the way of our US economy by the use of incentives.

“Larry stated that their POW workers were mandated to pick a minimum of 70 bushels of peaches daily, for which they were paid the standard rate of 80 cents per day. If a POW exceeded the 70 bushels per day required, he could earn, paid directly to him, an additional 5 cents per bushel picked. Another twist of the system involved the hiring of the army guard to work in the shed and dump peaches onto the grader…” Because all of these were things that you would have to do in the harvest, right? You’ve got, you’ve got the pickers, and then you have to. You put them on a grader, which then decides, you know, the sizes.

Lisa: yeah, sorts out based on sizing.

JoAnn: “…starting them along their way to the sorting and packing process. This, of course, required that the guard would virtually abandon his army duties. But the POWs, with the incentive of earning bonuses themselves, had little reason to even miss the guards.” So they’re working as fast as they can, trying to pick the peaches so that they can earn the extra 5 cents a bushel.

And then, let’s see, there’s this. So this, I think, is a funny little anecdote that he talks about. so these army guards weren’t necessarily from here either. The army guards are coming, you know, coming from wherever they had been stationed. And so they talk about. He talks about an army guard who happened to be a farm boy from Kansas. And let’s see, he talks about how, “at the East Orchard Mesa Peach Ranch…” we’ve talked about peach ranches. What I think peach ranches remind me of…little peaches on legs!

Lisa: Little peaches with legs!

JoAnn: Look at the little critters. Yes. let’s see. “At the East Orchard Mesa Peach Ranch of Elmer Rice, about 25 POW pickers were guarded by a single army guard who happened to be a farm boy from Kansas. Two of Elmer’s sons, Jerry and Mickey, relate that things went well in part because of the POW’s presence and in part because the crop was looking good and prospects were positive. Jerry was working around the packing shed and Mickey drove the tractor between the operations area and the orchard. Jerry reports that Mickey was ‘always an inquisitive and curious boy and he had a real interest in the rifle carried by the army guard.’

It seems that the Kansas farm boy army guard was homesick for some farm work. So he proposed that Mickey could play with the rifle if Mickey would let him drive the tractor. A deal was made. The army guard immediately took off on the tractor and Mickey immediately began to disassemble the rifle, numerous times. Jerry related that he was very gratified that nothing out of the ordinary happened during the duration of that trade because, quote, the guard who would have had to use the rifle was driving all around the property and orchard while the 10 year old boy with the rifle always had it broken down into parts.”

Lisa: That’s so funny. That’s amazing.

JoAnn: And then another thing they talk about that I didn’t think about because I didn’t grow up around picking peaches and that type of thing. I grew up around tasseling corn and all of that which has its own, its own set of challenges. But they talked about how the prisoners of war like to work without their shirts on. And the prominent variety of peach was the standard Elberta. And if you’re familiar with the Palisade area, Elberta, the name, the name of one of the major streets here is named after that peach. “It was well known as an especially fuzzy variety,”

Lisa: I’m itching already, I’m sorry.

JoAnn: “causing a notable and uncomfortable amount of scratching and itching.”

Lisa: I can feel it.

JoAnn: “There are many experienced peach pickers who shudder at this mention. And I among them, as I understand, there were many quick dips in the canals which could only temporarily assist with the fuzz discomfort factor. When asked if there were any problems with the POW labor or attitude, they replied, none. And it’s a good thing because the guards spent a great deal of their time in the packing shed trying to get acquainted with the girls who did the packing.”

Lisa: I mean, can you imagine you’re going from like warfare, that you were forced to do, to like come to Palisade. And it must have felt like quite the. I mean it must have felt like a good trade

JoAnn: right?

Lisa: If you had to do something.

JoAnn: I can only, I can only imagine the uncertainty that they felt on, you know, so many trains to get here. And then you get here and you’re like, what what is this? How are we even going to be treated? And then to be treated well. And there are people who don’t even know that this happened in Palisade, that they were here. And then you’ve got, a faction of people that hear this happened and assumed that they weren’t treated well. And it’s like. But that’s not true. They really were treated well, if anything, for that karmic sense of our guys are over there.

Lisa: Exactly.

JoAnn: And we would hope that they’re being treated with respect, even though they were fighting for different sides. So it’s just amazing. In fact, one of those about just, the uncertainty of where they were coming. And there are various versions of this story, but it all boils down to there were guys that tried to escape and they made it as far as Loma or Mack and thought they’d made it to California because they didn’t understand the geography of the United States, how vast it is compared to where they’re coming from. You know, over there, where if you’re on a train for however long, you’re going to get a little farther. Right. Or at least not farther, but into a different country.

Lisa: Sure.

JoAnn: then one other little story I want to share that doesn’t have really anything to do with this, but it is fascinating to me. Again, these are the words of Ron Jaynes. “This was the first time in my life that I had my first memory of peanut butter. Dad brought home a glass 1 quart jar, unlabeled, as I recall, of peanut butter. The contents were separated with the top third being oil and the bottom two thirds being solid. To prepare it for eating, one had to stir the contents until it was the same consistency throughout. I do remember that it was good in a sandwich alone, but superb with some of Mom’s peach marmalade or jellies was added. Looking back, I now realize that jar was government issued, intended for the POWs. In my father’s defense, I contend that the statute of limitations has expired.”

And then it says, “with the surrender of Germany and United States and allies moving rapidly to locate and free all Allied forces who were captured and held in enemy prison camps, not only was it a glorious event for all who regained their freedom, their families and their nations, it also allowed the United States government opportunity to revisit the standards by which we provided for those captured enemy troops we still held. The featured standards to encourage our enemies to treat our soldiers being held prisoner in equivalent manner as we treated theirs began an evolution and the availability of certain foods decreased with some and increased with others. In the words of one unknown US-held German prisoner of war, ‘we were suddenly hit by an avalanche of peanut butter.’”

And then he talks about how his grandfather, John Walker, “took his vacation during the peach harvest so that he could come from eastern Colorado and drive the team of horses to haul in the pack fruit. And that he was raised in the Gunnison area and as a young man worked as a cow hand and a ranch hand and drove 4 team hitch ore wagons from the mines above the Aspen area into town and delivered the silver ore to the mill. And he was reveling in his past as he drove the team hauling our peaches.”

And that brings up another point. A lot of the other workers that they would have in town were miners. So they would be in the mines in the winter when the need for coal was greatest here in Palisade, because Palisade had about 15 mines in the BookCliffs. The north you know the northern palisades around. Around here. So miners would work with the peaches as well. But again, like we talked about, there weren’t 4,000 people in the valley to do that.

Lisa: Even with the 250. 250 German POWs, that still doesn’t really even scratch the need. Right. So they must have still had others that they needed to try to pull in during that time, or did they just make it work with what they had?

JoAnn: I still think they pulled in people from elsewhere. I mean, that was just, you know, the 250 people, the POWs. But then you would have, if they hadn’t been called to war, you know, those families would be. Would be migrating here and doing that.

Lisa: so you’d still have internal migrants. Going back to the German POWs, did you, have you heard of anybody who stayed here or who came back? Like did anybody marry any local girl or anything like that?

JoAnn: I think there was, there was one that got married. I don’t have that information. And then we did get. We have some copies of some letters at the, at the history museum of German POWs that wrote later and were asking to be sponsored because they love. They loved it here so much. And then there was Ron Jaynes does mention one that escaped and finally came forward decades later.

Lisa: Oh wow. Was just hiding out locally?

JoAnn: According to the manuscript. Yes. So but again if you could blend in, you know, blend into society.

Lisa: What do we know about the local residents’ reaction to hosting a POW camp here?

JoAnn: As far as I know they were welcomed and he does talk about there were some women with the church groups that made sure that they were fed well and all of that. And again some of that is with the Geneva Convention like it was required. And honestly having people come and pick your peaches has been such an integral part who Palisade is that they were just as welcoming to the POWs being an extra set of hands to pick as they are to all the migrants that come now. And as you know, I mean you live here. We’re very welcoming and open to those workers because it’s such an important part of the process.

Lisa: Can’t happen without them.

JoAnn: No, it really can’t. And I know you had asked about some of the, the migrant cabins that are on the western side.

Lisa: Yeah. So that, so that’s different. I’m learning right now. It’s different.

JoAnn: It’s different. Yeah.

Lisa: Interesting. Okay, so that was more of the old CCC camp or like. Or what? No, you tell me.

JoAnn: So where the POWs were, that was on the eastern side. That’s where the CCC workers came. And those workers also helped pick peaches when they were, you know, when that was the season for that. They helped line the canals with the cement. They also helped build the facilities up at Land’s End. So you’ve got the bathroom, the restrooms up there and you’ve got that structure that’s up there. They helped build that. They helped build the roads at the monument. So you know they helped all around the area. And so when they were trying to figure out what to do, you know we’ve got these able bodied men who can help and Palisade has a need where would we put them? And so it was like oh we’ll put them where the CCC camp was. That’s what we’ll do. So that was on the eastern end. And then like I said, those were more mobile, mobile facilities. So those were just dismantled and or destroyed at the end of that.

Lisa: So just temporary housing.

JoAnn: Just temporary housing

Lisa: like basic shelter over the summer.

JoAnn: Right. Then on the western side, I think there were about 200 of them. 200 cabins and I’m using that term loosely. It looks like a little shed and I think Carboy actually has one on property that you can see and there are some others that are located, you know, around.

Lisa: I think that Restoration has a couple but yeah Carboy’s you can actually walk into because they use it as a band stage.

JoAnn: Yeah you can see. And it again there were 200 of them down there. And then they also had they had a clinic that worked down there. They had a community area, they had a bathhouse. They had all of, all of that type of thing because they’re very basic shelter.

Lisa: like running water or no?

JoAnn: No, no running water. They were just the cabins on those slabs. So if you’re hiking out there, if you are on the western side of Riverbend, there is a sign out there that is in desperate need of being redone.

Lisa: Yeah. If anybody wants to sponsor something.

JoAnn: Gee. Yes. I wonder what. Yeah, I wonder who we could talk to about that. So it is on our radar. I don’t even know that it’s the historical society’s responsibility necessarily for that

Lisa: Yeah but somebody could donate to fund it!

JoAnn: But somebody could get that going. But Yeah. So the sign definitely needs to be fixed up and then you can see the cement platforms that are. That are still in there. For people who were truly migratory in that they didn’t have a permanent home, it’s better than living in your car. And the community around that. I can only imagine how wonderful that community was. I mean they’re working incredibly hard, incredibly long hours. They’re there to get a job done and. But you’ve got that sense of community where you’re living in all of those and you’ve got little kids so you’ve got your whole family is there sometimes too. And that’s a little different with how some of the migrant workers are now. Some of the migrant workers, they come up here without their families and they send their money back. This. The whole family would travel. So there were people who would watch the little kids during the day if you weren’t, if you weren’t quote old enough to help.

Lisa: Yeah so if you were like 4? 3?

JoAnn: And then child labor laws kind of came in, you know, ruined everything. No, just kidding. This is recorded. I should be careful when I say I’m kidding. Child labor laws are very important. She says while laughing. But yeah, and so those are, those are no longer there.

Lisa: So that. So the west end of the park was truly a camp for migratory workers.

JoAnn: Yes.

Lisa: It wasn’t. They didn’t. It wasn’t mixed. It wasn’t like, you know, they didn’t use the same camp or whatever. That’s so interesting. I did not realize that. I thought it was all in the same place.

JoAnn: Yeah. And like you said, there’s no running water, but with that there. These sheds are very basic. So it wouldn’t be hospitable in the winter. Like you wouldn’t. You wouldn’t do that. And now every season is a little different. So. And we have a chart at the Palisade History Museum that shows how many carloads, you know, train carloads of peaches were sent out. And you can tell based on the weather and kind of what happened during which season.

So some seasons they wouldn’t need 6,000 workers for two weeks because let’s say it was a smaller. It was a smaller season. So you could stretch. You could use the same amount of workers to prune and this and that. And it could be stretched over the season, but in the bumper crop years. I mean imagine, imagine 3,000 people in Palisade and it not. I mean we have the farmers market and we have things like that that bring a lot of people to town. But imagine that every day all day.

In fact, that’s one of the reasons why the public restroom is where it is. So that public restroom was built in the 40s specifically because we had so many migrant workers coming through that you needed a place for them to do that. So that, so the restrooms, those have been there since the 40s.

Lisa: Interesting.

JoAnn: They’ve been revamped.

Lisa: so yeah. Could people just get off the train right there?

JoAnn: Well, we had a stop. Yes.

Lisa: Right. So there was a station, right?

JoAnn: Yep. Yeah. So the, the depot is where those long white buildings are now for the for the train. All the train stuff. We’ve got some pictures of all of that at the historical society too. Yeah, Palisade was a stop. So, yeah, that’s where they. When he was talking about the German prisoners of war, they would have gotten off there. Right there kind of by, you know, Second and Main-ish.

Lisa: Then so going back to the migrant park. So we know the CCC camp which turned into the German POW Camp. We know why that ended and when. but for the migrant portion of the housing, when did that stop being needed and why? Because obviously it’s not still there today.

JoAnn: Right. So I will give a shout out to Priscilla Walker. She’s the founding chair of the Palisade Historical Society. I reached out to her when I was researching this because she knows a lot of this information. And like I said, I’m just learning all of this. I’m researching all of this too. So let’s see. we were talking about. We talked a little bit about the child labor laws, right? So, and that kind of all feeds into when all of this stuff kind of started to shift.

So, “before the child labor laws were changed, most teenagers worked in the harvest to earn spending money for the things their parents did not want to buy for them. And the schools even delayed starting when the harvests were late, as teenagers from all over the valley would come to Palisade to earn the spending money. In the 60s, that stopped as they passed a law that fruit could not be shipped interstate if kids were not in school during harvest.”

So now you’ve taken some of your labor, you’ve taken away some of your workforce. So, “kids who didn’t work for their parents orchard would go to school and then work in the packing sheds until 10 or 11 at night.” So they would still work. “Fruit must be shipped at just the right time to arrive at stores as they ripen. And the harvest dates change with every variety and weather conditions.”

And like I had mentioned, “in the first half of the 20th century, most of the harvest workers were white. We have information in the museum about a book written, about the Depression where the family was in Gunnison in 1933 and heard that Palisade needed workers and came here for the harvest. And then they lived in the area until World War II began. And we’ve got photos and information from a woman whose parents were teachers.” Like we mentioned, that type of migrant work.

“The marketing order passed in 1923, established the Peach Board of Control, which also advertised for harvest workers and helped ensure a supply. The migrant labor camp at the west end of Riverbend was built in 1941 with 200 cabins to house seasonal labor and their families. In 1943, it housed a population of more than 800. In addition to the cabins, there was the basketball court, horseshoe pits, clinic, bathhouse, community center. And then local physicians offered free health care.” So, “for truly migrant workers who otherwise would be living in their cars or tents, this was a better place.” And again, I mentioned it included daycare for the young children. “And churches readily offered help, to the residents and their families. Fruit grower wives, including Dorothy Power, Margaret Talbot, Ruby Toothaker, started the child and migrant services, which continue to operate today as La Plaza.”

“In 1961, the labor camp was closed by the federal government, forcing growers to find alternative housing for increasingly hard to find workers. A number of cabins were bought by growers and moved onto their property to house the workers they still needed, because they would no longer have access to the migrant camp housing and its benefits.”

Lisa: Do we know why the federal government mandated it to be closed?

JoAnn: I don’t know for sure, but if I had to guess, I mean, you’ve got 200 cabins there. You don’t have running water. You don’t, I mean, I don’t know what standards shifted.

Lisa: Interesting.

JoAnn: And, and then it kind of fell back onto the growers to provide that housing.

Lisa: So you went from kind of like a shared pool of resources to every individual farmer has to provide their own housing for their own workers in the 60s.

JoAnn: Right. Along that same time is when. So we had like the United Fruit Growers association, we had those farmers co-ops that would deal with the marketing of the fruit and the shipping of the fruit and all of that. And the farmers would, or the orchard. The orchardists would buy into that program, like how a normal farmers co-op works. Because when you’re a grower, you want to focus on what your talent is.

Lisa: Sure, yeah.

JoAnn: Right? A fantastic grower may not be the best marketer. Right. And so Palisade was really kind of known for that, having that community, that co-op type way of doing things. So you’ve got the co-ops, you’ve got the place where the migrant workers can stay. You’ve got, you know, all of this kind of happening as a community. And then in the 60s, 70s, things just kind of started to split out and it’s like, well, no, now there’s no longer the United Fruit Growers association. There’s no longer the co-op. So now the grower is responsible for. And we no longer ship them by rail from Palisade.

Lisa: Right, and there’s no longer a station here.

JoAnn: So now, now the grower has to figure out how am I going to get my workers, how am I going to house my workers, how am I going to market my fruit, how am I going to transport my fruit, how, how am I going to do of that? And there’s pro, there’s pros and cons to all of that. If you, if you were a grower that wants to be responsible for all of that, and can really be successful at that, that’s fantastic. And if you’re a grower who can’t, then that, that’s a different type of challenge.

Lisa: I was curious about that whole thing too. Like why did the co-ops end? Almost like with a shift in societal structure that I don’t know enough to even talk about, but seems like that was part of the reasoning for why everything started to change here.

JoAnn: Right. And with anything. And I haven’t really researched that. I’ve heard people talk about it and I’ve heard people, having differing views talk about it. And so you always get, “well, this is why they did it.” And then you’re talking to someone else, “No, this is why they did it.” It’s like, well, they did it, you know, I mean it came to an end.

Lisa: What haven’t I asked you about? You hit on a lot of my questions already just in the normal course of our conversation.

JoAnn: Because I babble on and on.

Lisa: No, because you’re prepared.

JoAnn: Well, I mean the CCC camp was built in 1935. It’s amazing to think about how Palisade has always dealt with thousands of people for short amounts of time. And because sometimes I think people think that’s a new thing

Lisa: with festivals

JoAnn: the festivals and all of that. And it isn’t a new thing. It’s been a thing forever. And that’s good and bad. We obviously need to address, to address some issues, but having an influx of people has always been a challenge. Now, granted, the workers are here and they’re doing a specific task, and then it’s done. But, that’s interesting to me, and I was absolutely fascinated to find out that there was a German prisoner of war camp here. And when you hear that, like, the things you think in your head when you first hear that are different than what the reality was.

Lisa: It’s not like a prison.

JoAnn: Right. Right. And then when you pick it apart, you’re like, well, why did I think that? Like, it would be just the same as if I found out that a whole group of Palisade guys were kept on a farm in Germany or wherever, you know, working on a farm. And you would hope that they would be treated well and not all. Not all prisoners were treated well and not all, you know, all of that.

Lisa: Where did they go when they weren’t here? Were they just moved around to different parts of the country where needed?

JoAnn: They were just moved around. Yeah. Where needed. Because again, with that migrant stream. So you’ve got, you know, apples are picked on a different schedule, cabbages are picked on a different schedule. These are like, everything is kind of picked on a different growing season. And then where were they when they weren’t doing that? I don’t know. That. I have no idea.

Lisa: What is this, historic Palisade coloring book?

JoAnn: Oh, yes. Okay. So this is a book that all second graders at Taylor Elementary get. And then, usually in the spring, we go and we do a presentation for them. So we show them, like, these are what the stilts look like. And this is really what coal is and that type of thing. This is interesting because Ron Jaynes did most of the drawings for this book. So he never considered himself to be an artist,

Lisa: I disagree!

JoAnn: despite the fact that these are really, really good. He considered himself to be a doodler. He liked to doodle. So his doodles are all through this book. And. And he talks about. So it’s a book to help elementary school kids understand kind of the history of Palisade and kind of what goes into that. And so it shows, you know, a man on stilts pruning, and he drew that. That’s by Ron Jaynes. And then you’ve got the picking sack. Oh, that’s another funny story that he has in his manuscript trying to teach the German prisoners of war how to use. So the peach packing sack was actually invented in Palisade by George W. Bowman, who happens to be Priscilla Walker’s grandfather.

Lisa: Oh cool.

JoAnn: We have a copy of the patent at the history museum. He designed this peach packing sack to gently hold the peaches while you’re picking. And he designed it when he got the idea when he was watching his wife pick peaches with her apron. She’d pull up her apron and she would put peaches in. And so you put straps around your neck and then these unclip and then it kind of opens up like a tube, so to speak, and you can gently release the peaches into your basket or your barrel. Obviously I did not want to read the whole thing because that would be boring.

Lisa: Well, we have to give people an incentive to come in and buy that.

JoAnn: I know, I can’t find it right now. But he, said, he said basically “they handed out the peach packing sacks just assuming they would know how to put it on. Some of them put them on like a skirt because they’re open when the bottom clips up.” People listening, are like, what are you talking about? It’s like it looks like a big bag that you’ve clipped up the ends, but it’s all open when you, unclip it, then the peaches can fall through into whatever you’re doing. So, “some of them put them on like a skirt. Some of them were trying, like they were just trying to figure it out. When they finally figured it out was it was absolutely hilarious.”

Lisa: I can see trying to wear that as a belt too around your neck, maybe that happens.

JoAnn: But it leaves your hands free so that you can pick. And a lot of times people see the stilts and they think people picked on stilts and they really didn’t. They, they did more pruning on stilts because you need to prune the whole tree. You don’t have to, you don’t have to get down every few minutes and empty your peach, your peach sack. So you had to be kind of more, more mobile. And he has a picture of people making boxes by hand. He’s got a fruit picker. And these are available too, for a donation at the museum. And then we give them to. So a, generous donation has allowed us to give them to Taylor Elementary students so that they can use this in their. Their local Palisade history section.

Lisa: It’s really just fascinating to think about. I mean as you know, think about all the people we’ve been here in the past and all the ways that people have had to be creative to just get the job done and get the harvest done.

JoAnn: And it’s intense. And I grew up on a farm, so I understand that part of it. It’s different. It’s different than you know, peach packing, but it’s the same idea that you are up sometimes before the sun, you’re working all day and you have this timeline that has been given to you by Mother Nature. Like you just. You have to get it done and you have to get it done in the time that you have and. Yeah. And I can’t imagine 6,000 people here every day, all day, all night, for even, you know, two or three weeks in August.

Lisa: Oh, I did think of something else though, that reminds me. So when I was reading some of the stories in the Palisade Tribune, which is available on the website.

JoAnn: Yes.

Lisa: Which you can plug. Real quick.

JoAnn: Oh yes, our Palisade. Real quick. Oh dear. Can I do real quick. Our Palisade Tribune was our newspaper of record from June 1903 until they ceased publishing March of 2014. So the Palisade Historical Society has been digitizing the physical copies, with Colorado Historic newspapers collection through the Colorado State Library. And those are being put in a free searchable database, which is a gigantic time suck. I mean wonderful resource for researching. But, Yes. So what about your?

Lisa: Well, so when I got into a total rabbit hole looking at articles about the CCC camps and it seemed like there, so to your point of having 6,000 people in town. There were a lot of things that the heads of the camp or different people in town would organize different events for people. So like dances, something like there is an event set up for the ladies to go visit the CCC camp and like the women of town.

JoAnn: Oh, dear.

Lisa: And just like you know tour it and.

JoAnn: Right. Well, it, in his manuscript, he talks about how, you know, an officer finds a wife or that type of thing. Because they weren’t just there. I mean, they were there to see the soldiers too. You know, everybody working.

Lisa: Everybody was curious. Right. It seemed like so I wonder if there were. Do we know anything about from the CCC time, if anybody from that era kind of stayed here and settled and became part of the community.

JoAnn: Became part of the community that I don’t know. That I don’t know specifically.

Lisa: it was long enough ago.

JoAnn: And I don’t know. I don’t even know exactly where all those workers came from either. They could have been. Some of them could have even been local already.

Lisa: Just from reading yeah, from. From reading the stories. It just sounds like they came from. It just seemed like such an effort to staff these camps or, you know, populate them and then move them around the country too, because they also moved around the country. So, they would say, oh, the boys from. You know, in the old language of the article. The boys from Nebraska are going to be coming this week and let’s welcome them.

JoAnn: Right.

Lisa: And then there’s. Then everybody was sad when they were leaving. They’d be like, oh, we miss their smiling faces. They wrote us, you know, they wrote Mrs. Blah Blah Blah a letter and said they really miss her or just like it was really adorable.

JoAnn: Right. Well, it goes back to that sense of community too.

Lisa: Right.

JoAnn: You know, you’ve got your locals, but then you’re also welcoming people that are here to do a job. They’re here and now you’re part of Palisade.

Lisa: Right.

JoAnn: And then you’ll move on. But you always take that little part of Palisade with you.

Lisa: That’s. That’s a really beautiful note to wrap it up on, I think. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. I appreciate Priscilla and Mr. Jaynes, a definitely invaluable contributor to this conversation. So thank you so much.

JoAnn: No, thank you so much for having me.

Lisa: If you’re interested in learning more about the history of seasonal agricultural workers in Palisade and the Grand Valley, visit the Palisade History Museum, where you can also find copies of ‘Colorado Peaches and German Prisoners of War’ by Ron Jaynes, which was written in 2008 based on interviews Ron conducted of residents who worked with German Prisoners of War in the summers of 1944 and 1945. There you can also find copies of the ‘Historic Palisade Coloring Book.’ Both are available for suggested donations of $5 each. 

In the next episode, I’ll be talking with Iriana Medina, Executive Director of La Plaza Palisade, about how the H-2A visa program helps provide the seasonal agricultural labor to meet the needs of today’s farmers, orchardists, and grape growers. That episode will be out in two weeks.

Before we go, here’s a bonus story from JoAnn, courtesy of Ron Jaynes’ publication:

JoAnn: And then he talks about the very first time he rode in a Jeep and that was August of 45. He “was nearing five years of age and there were eight German prisoners of war out in the Clifton orchard picking the peaches. While our mom was occupied with the efforts of harvest and packing our crop, my brother John and I had a few tasks assigned and I am positive that John tended to his with far more enthusiasm than I dedicated to mine. As would have been quite typical for me, staying out of the way, not being underfoot and staying low profile was my ultimate goal, not doing those meaningless little tasks. This also allowed me more time to take notes on other events, like the army jeep with a white star on the hood which drove into the yard daily. Driven by an officer, it went past the packing shed and out into the orchard. Soon it would return, zip past the packing shed and be gone. I decided that I wanted a ride in that Jeep.

“Not exactly in keeping with my low profile philosophy, but the variety of this idea seemed to be acceptable to me. Since the only place the jeep stopped was out in our orchard, that would be where my dream ride had to start. The following day, as I anticipated and expected, the Jeep came into the yard and drove out into the orchard. I ran through the middle of the orchard and into the midst of the POW pickers. Some picking from six foot ladders, some picking from the ground. I was first noticed by the POWs and recall their grins and some jabber amongst themselves. Then I was noticed by the guard. The guard shouldered his rifle on its sling and walked along the peach rows to reach me, picked me up and carried me out of the orchard into the Jeep, sitting me into the passenger seat.

“I sat alone in the Jeep for a short period of time, but soon we were on our way over the orchard trail that I followed daily on foot alongside the head ditch and passed about 30 rows of peach trees approaching the plum tree, turning the corner at the big tree with the tire swing, past the horse corral, the old cellar where Grandma Jaynes kept the smelly apple vinegar, past the smokehouse where the aroma of smoke cured meat lingered year round and the garage, a corn crib to the barn and packing shed, where for the first time I can recall that army Jeep stopped in the yard.

“A vivid memory of this ride was the amount of dust that swirled around us as we traversed the orchard trail, a ride of about 300 yards, and in not much more than three minutes, my mission accomplished. I do not remember what was particularly thrilling, and possibly I was interested in the motorized vehicle running in the orchard because we still carried our crop out of the orchard with a wagon and a team of horses driven mostly by our Grandfather Walker. Looking back indicates that I was probably more excited with the planning of my ride than I was in experiencing it. I didn’t get to honk the horn or touch the steering wheel or the gear shift or examine the carbine mounted on the dash, or even slap the spare tire and gas can hung on the back. At the end of the ride, the driver and my mom had a short conversation, But I do not recall that I was even remotely in trouble for my actions. At any rate, I guess my thirst for a Jeep ride was quenched and I did not try it again.”

Lisa: The podcast’s theme music is Riverbend by Geoff Roper.

Thanks for listening. With love, from Palisade.

For Julia Coffey, Farm Director at Early Morning Orchard in Palisade, her dream job on a farm isn’t really about farming. Learn what it’s really about – and then go visit the farm! They’re located at 3694 G 4/10 Road in Palisade and at earlymorningorchard.com.    

Theme Music: Riverbend by Geoff Roper    

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Transcript:

Welcome to the Postcards From Palisade podcast. I’m your host, Lisa McNamara. Palisade is most famous for its peaches, but there’s so much more happening in our little town. Join me as I chat with our community members to learn how they are making Palisade a great place to live and visit.

Today, I’m talking with Julia Coffey, Farm Director at Early Morning Orchard in Palisade, about seeds, farm life, her dream job, and finding happiness here. For Julia, her job on a farm isn’t really about farming. Learn what it’s all about on today’s Postcards From Palisade.

Lisa: Thank you so much for being here today and spending some time with me talking about Early Morning Orchard.

Julia: Yeah, I’m super thrilled to be here. Thanks for inviting me. my name is Julia Coffey and I am the director at Early Morning Orchard, which is a four season vegetable farm and stone fruit orchard. So we do a little bit of everything.

Lisa: And where is Early Morning Orchard located?

Julia: Ah, okay, so it’s on G and 4/10, just like half a mile down to the west. The farm is owned by Skip Doty and he is probably a known name in Palisade. He’s been around for a long time. And let’s see, I think that he started his operation in the early 2000s. and then it’s been a farm and an orchard ever since then. And we’ve done all kinds of different attempts at that business model.

Lisa: That’s cool. It’s crazy to think that early 2000s is over 20 years ago.

Julia: It seems just like yesterday.

Lisa: It does.

Julia: a peak for me.

Lisa: but yeah so that’s a long record of farming in this area.

Julia: Yeah. And so recently I think there’s been, a real interest in regenerative farming practices. Like, it’s popular, it’s trendy, but it’s also very important. And our former farm manager and farm director were very focused on those types of practices which take time. So you can’t just be regenerative overnight. It really takes a lot of methodical planning and patience. For instance, moving away from something like tilling, which is turning the earth over really aggressively, does have a significant impact on the microbiome of the soil and all kinds of living organisms. And it can deteriorate the quality of soil. So when we say that we grow responsibly at Early Morning Orchard, a lot of the things that we think about orient around soil health. That also goes with pest management. It goes with crop rotation to protect the soil from diseases, from blight, from, overuse. It does help to protect the soil in the off season. So you have a cover crop and then it puts nutrients back in the soil. Not, disturbing too much of the upper layer. And so when you’re working with the soil and being cognizant that everything below you really matters and then rotating crops so that you can mitigate disease and you can have something like a really heavy feeder be replaced by something that fixes nitrogen back into the ground. We do a lot of composting, and that’s kind of shifted over the years. We do not have it dialed in 100%, but that’s part of our process to add nutrients back into the soil. yeah, there’s a lot of different things. You know, we used to have a livestock component, so we had chickens. and right now we’re not currently able to care for them. So we adopted them out and had to kind of scale back our operation. But we do have that on the horizon as the farm develops. but yeah, that’s kind of the idea of responsibly grown. It is really seeing our work as stewardship, as growing soil and then creating a space for plants to kind of grow themselves because that’s what they do.

Lisa: Oh that’s a really interesting distinction that I honestly haven’t really thought about. and a good description of what regenerative principles are. How is that different from. Or does that include like, organic or biodynamic principles too?

Julia: Okay, that’s a really good question, and I’m going to answer this in my layman’s terms

Lisa: good!

Julia: because I don’t actually know, like, the. All the laws being written about it, but it’s definitely in process because organic standards are currently, okay, to the best of my knowledge, in conflict with regenerative practices. And one of the biggest reasons is because of livestock and animal integration. Those are really important for regenerative farming practices, especially with manure, with hooves turning under food, like the digestive processes are so important with livestock, grazing, all that kind of stuff. It’s just, it’s a really natural combination. However, with national organic standards, you cannot have livestock or any animals on the land, like 90 days before harvest, which is a considerable amount. So you actually find that they do not overlap. So I think, again, best of my knowledge, that many, many people are aware of this. And I think that there’s some types of efforts to address that kind of miss. That’s one of the ways that, like, organic is super out of touch with stewardship.

Lisa: Right. Maybe when it was started, like anything, there has to be some kind of compromise in the principles. So you talk about the distinction I think probably on the website where it’s called Certified Naturally Grown. Is that like a program or something like that that accounts for that difference?

Julia: not with livestock. I don’t think. But I think Certified Naturally Grown is just a different but similar distinction to organic. I believe it’s a little less stringent and maybe quicker. when I owned Seeds Trust, which was my previous company, we were really interested in biodiversity and saving seeds that had a story in history. Now when we narrowed it down to just organic, it actually was super limiting and was the opposite of creating a biodiverse ethos. So we actually opted to not do organic because it was too limiting. We did take on Certified Naturally Grown because we still do all the organic practices, but it allowed us to purchase from other people who were very small operations with very responsible growing habits in line with our values, but weren’t part of like, a really, really large, somewhat expensive and burdensome thing. There’s pros and cons to all kinds of these certifications and whatnot. And they’re not appropriate for all size levels they’re not. It’s just not one size fits all. So that’s kind of an example of certified naturally grown versus organic. I’m curious to see what happens with regenerative. I know there’s a lot of policy work going on with that, so we’ll stay tuned.

Lisa: Yeah, that’s fascinating, but there’s more behind the labels, so.

Julia: Yeah, yeah.

Lisa: So you mentioned earlier, Early Morning Orchard is a four season farm. what does that mean? Why is that unique?

Julia: Well, it’s unique because oftentimes here in Colorado, our climate, we don’t have a full 360 growing season. 365, I should say. and normally it’s a summer or a shoulder season. And we’re fortunate enough to have pretty robust greenhouses right now and tunnels. So we’ve decided to really lean into the winter season and offer greens when there’s not a ton of options out there. A lot of it is like very quick cold season stuff. And when I say quick, I mean days to maturity is low. and then cold tolerant items are going to be your kale, your chard, lettuces. let’s see what else. We’ve got like 15 beds of spinach outside with their little hoop covers. Herbs, we can do romaine lettuce. We have this really cool mustard mix of Asian greens. so it’s just like basically green therapy because you walk into a greenhouse in the middle of winter and it’s alive and warm. Yeah, we’re just really fortunate to be able to offer food in the wintertime.

Lisa: Yeah, that’s really unique. I don’t think there’s many places around here that do that. How can people buy your products?

Julia: So historically we have not had a huge direct to customer presence and right now we’re really, really trying to develop that. So I’m proud to have been involved in food access and wholesale types of sales. As we move forward as a business, we really need to be like, we are your neighbors. We have produce for you. So here’s how you can find us. You can wander onto the farm anytime you want. There’s a big cartoon peach right outside the driveway. And we’re just wanting it to be like you come on the farm, you can buy whatever you would like. So we’re going to have a farm stand every Friday from 2 to 6pm. we’re going to be at the farmers market this coming season. And we have a website on which you can kind of like go grocery shopping. So you can put things in your cart like you would anywhere and then come pick up your order once we have it ready. So that’s earlymorningorchard.com. early morning orchard. A lot of people want to say early morning orchards, but it’s just one.

Lisa: not plural.

Julia: so those are all the ways, you know, we’re on Instagram, we’re trying to build, build our following and you know, we’re joining the chamber of commerce and we’re trying to be, you know, including ourselves in some of the agritourism events, trying to see what’s going on in town, going to town meetings, all that kind of stuff. So we’re trying to just be there, which we have not been historically so it’s kinda fun.

Lisa: So what was behind the shift in that and being more wholesale to being more community focused.

Julia: I think that economically and our size there’s a better fit for our business. So the growing space that we have for vegetables is not very big. So it doesn’t make as much sense to do wholesale when the size of our farm is so small. another thing is it’s so close to the center of town and it’s right along all of these bike loops. It just makes so much sense for it to be like a really welcoming space for people and neighbors and tourists and folks who are here in town. We are still gonna do food access. We’re still gonna do wholesale. but we’re gonna just add the direct to consumer aspect of it. You know, like, we have amazing food to share, not just with food access, which is an honor, but for our community, our direct community. Like, we are a resource for food right there. We have to share that with people. Like, it’s just so cool. It’s so satisfying. Like I live on the farmhouse on the farm and I’ll be cooking something and I’m like, oh, I need rosemary. And I run off into the farm and I get some herbs or I’m like I want a carrot. I literally go out with a pitchfork and dig up some carrots for carrots and hummus. It’s so satisfying. And it’s very cool to share that with our friends and neighbors.

Lisa: Yeah. And very delicious.

Julia: Yeah. And here’s the other thing that I think is very cool. When you pull something out of the ground, from that moment on, it loses its nutrient profile significantly. So the sooner that you can eat produce from the time it was harvested, the bigger boost of nutrients you’re going to get. The amount of vitamins and minerals that are packed into fresh greens, particularly, but vegetables across the board, is incredible. So being able to be like, yeah, I’m gonna eat that within 24 hours or even a week is significant.

Lisa: Yeah.

Julia: Yeah.

Lisa: That’s why when you buy something from the farmer’s market or from a farmer, it tastes so much better. It’s like, versus from the grocery store. Like, who knows how long that’s been around.

Julia: That’s stuff does. Yeah, you can taste. It’s true. You can taste a lot of that. A lot of what’s in there. This goes back to, four season farming. And I was talking about what you grow during the wintertime and cold season items. So we have chard and kale in our tunnels, which means it’s just covered with plastic.

Lisa: Okay.

Julia: It doesn’t mean that it’s

Lisa: I was picturing a tunnel in the ground.

Julia: Oh yeah, no, we call it a tunnel, a high tunnel. Right. So it’s covered with metal framing and then plastic over the top. And there’s no supplemental heating other than what the sun can produce in there and then what that plastic can trap.

Lisa: Wow.

Julia: So it gets, I mean we had what like a day of six degrees or night. So the cool thing is when those cold hardy crops are exposed to that level of cold, they create sucrose within their cells and that’s a protection mechanism against the cold. So you get unbelievably sweet taste, from kale and chard and all that stuff. And you can really like it tastes so different than summer kale. Just like such a cool little special thing that really only happens in the winter.

Lisa: And I don’t think I’ve ever had any winter grown produce, now I feel like I’m

Julia: Okay well

Lisa: I’m embarrassed to admit that, but I gotta stop by and get some.

Julia: You’re embarrassed? I should have come in here with an offering of greens. What was I thinking? Like what the heck.

Lisa: But yeah, I don’t know if I’ve ever tasted that difference. So I’m very intrigued.

Julia: I am going to get you some of that as soon as possible. So it’s coming towards you. You’ll be able to taste it.

Lisa: Sounds good. I’ll stop by. So you mentioned food access earlier. And so can you talk a little bit more about what that means?

Julia: Yes. Okay. This is super cool. So food banks will have programs in which they not only have, donors, but they have potential access to funding from many different sources. Whether it’s federal, whether it’s state, whether it’s personal, grants, whatever, all that kind of stuff. And with that money, a lot of people don’t realize that they do actually purchase a lot of food. It’s not just donating food to a food bank. They do a lot of that. But they have the capacity to actually buy really high quality food. Well, at least some of them do. So we have been really fortunate to be included in sourcing for food pantries. So Community Food Bank based in Grand Junction does excellent work with this and they really prioritize local food, they prioritize local food systems and they prioritize like fresh greens that are also culturally responsive. So they have their clients really, really well in mind. pretty amazing work. So they will buy a lot of stuff from us. and then similarly, Garfield County has a program called Lift Up and they buy greens and veggies and all kinds of stuff from us all year long, and they commit to that upfront as part of their programming. So, so they’re doing a really wonderful service for their clients.

Lisa: That’s very cool yeah. That is like a win, win, win, win for everybody.

Julia: Totally. Yeah.

Lisa: Continuing on with the different things that you do, tell me more about the seed adaptation.

Julia: Yeah, so we did a seed adaptation project, and this is kind of like in the interspace between when I was just seasonally working at Early Morning Orchard, but I also was running my own business. So I owned a company called Seeds Trust for 14 years, and my business partner and I moved it out here in 2020. Once I was involved with Early Morning Orchard, I saw a lot of opportunities for us to do seed growouts and then also seed trials and then seed adaptation projects. and one of the reasons is because the farm itself was interested in responsible growing. And part of responsible growing is saving your seed, planning to save your seed, being aware of how certain varieties are responding to our stressors. Our region and a lot of western regions and just, okay, the world in general, we’re seeing more and more extreme weather. We are going to be challenged and are challenged with heat, water scarcity, all kinds of stuff like extreme weather. So when you can start with adapted seed that already has within its DNA and genetic expression, hardiness to drought, to heat, maybe even some pest resistance, and then early production, we are ahead. And that’s regional responsibility. Not to bash any other seed companies, but you should be buying, if you’re growing, from your regional seed companies that are growing regionally. that’s true sustainability and resilience. So anyway, long story short, there was an opportunity on a little parcel of land across Front Street, to do some pepper and tomato adaptation projects. And all that really means is growing these varieties under stress and then saving seeds from the best plants, the most ideal fruits, or whatever criteria really you’re looking for. It can be early setting, it can be, general resistance. It’s kind of up to the person who’s, who has a relationship with that plant to choose what they’re looking for. So our parameters were heat tolerant, early producing, and drought tolerant. So you keep selecting for those things, and then each season you will see that resilience build. And then that’s what we are planting in our farm and we should be building, you know, resilience moving forward.

Lisa: And so, like you mentioned too, like, that’s not a fast process because you have to go a whole year before you see what the plant does. And do you like, tag the ones that you like and then.

Julia: Yes. I do.

Lisa: Wait until they go to seed and then you have to start over with those the next year and just.

Julia: That’s exactly it. Yeah, you mark them. Sometimes you rogue out the ones that you know you don’t want because they’re just complicating things. We have to make sure that they’re not cross pollinating because you don’t want that the genetic material from that one to contaminate the one that you’re trying to go for. and then also it’s easy for peppers and tomatoes because they’re self pollinating. You don’t have to worry as much about the cross. So they’re actually a really great beginner plant for seed savers.

Lisa: So then you mentioned that you’re developing the seeds. So it’s not even like this isn’t like some kind of lab thing where something’s being created. It’s like a natural process of selection, and then using them and then also distributing them?

Julia: Yeah. So there’s a lot of very natural collaborative folks involved in this. So, the farm benefits from its own seed stock, but you get so many seeds out of a tomato, like, you’re just overloaded. So Seeds Trust will actually. We will sell seeds to Seeds Trust so that we can actually make money off of both the seed, the produce itself, and we can save costs on purchasing seed in the future. So it’s kind of a win, win, win, win.

Lisa: Again! Yeah. And then if people wanted to buy them, they would buy them from Seeds Trust?

Julia: That’s correct. Yes, we have those varieties available at Seeds Trust.

Lisa: I think, and this is a little bit different for you because it’s a four season farm. I think for a lot of people, they assume there isn’t anything to do on a farm in the winter, and that’s totally untrue. So setting aside even the lettuce and, and the greens and the things we talked about earlier, what else is really important that you have to do in the winter?

Julia: Okay. Several things come to mind. One of them is vegetable oriented and the other is orchard oriented. So when we’re talking about vegetable production, like when you’re in the middle of your winter season, you have to also simultaneously be planning for spring and summer. So all of these items that you have in your greenhouses you have to give a date for, all right, we’re going to pull you up and we have to have everything growing for what’s going to be transplanted in there. You start first from your greenhouses because they’re most protected, so they’ll be able to house your more kind of like tender things. Right. Then you move out and you plan into the tunnels because they don’t have heat. Then you move on to planning in the field. It’s basically like constantly playing with the puzzle. So you’re constantly doing that. Then you also have to think about, okay, how are we taking care of our orchards in the wintertime? Like, just because they have no leaves doesn’t mean nothing’s happening. So there are some pretty significant, milestones that you have to hit in the quote, unquote, off season. It depends, I think, on sort of how you decide to manage your orchard. But there are certain pest management and maybe even dormancy sprays or frost protection sprays. Blight management types of sprays, like these are on a schedule at certain times. So I’ll give you an example. In the fall when you have your leaves drop, there’s a certain type of spray that you would put on the trees to protect from a certain type of blight or some type of bacteria. Okay. I actually, this is my first season in the orchard, so I’m actually learning and I can’t remember the scientific names of these things, but the idea is that as the leaves fall, it exposes more of the woody material and that’s what the spray sticks to and that helps prevent spores from spreading. there are organic ways you can do that and there are conventional ways you can do that. And then there will be the pruning season, which is happening now. You see that all over, right? We used to see all the kind of like the red, really young growth, adding a little bit of color. As one of our CSA members Lisa mentioned, she’s like, oh, I love seeing all the red, and now it’s all getting pruned off. So like January through Marchish is the time when you really prune. And then that allows the buds to set and the fruit to set in a way that is, that’s using the best resources for the tree and easier fruit picking and bigger fruits because. Okay, so another thing you’ll do with pruning is, okay, now we’ve pruned. Then once the fruits start to set, you’ll go back and you’ll do thinning so that the fruits have enough space to mature without crowding each other out. So those are all kind of things that need to happen. Then, okay, so after you prune, then the branches are all on the ground. Now what? Well, okay, now you bring a big flail through. So now you got to mulch it all in. And it’s actually a significant operation that’s happening all over right now. So it’s kind of cool.

Lisa: So that’s interesting, you mulch the branches in instead of. I know a lot of people will pull them and just burn them. I see that too.

Julia: They do. Especially if there’s gummosis, or Cytospora, which is the same thing. You want to cut those branches out and burn them because you do not want that going back into your soil. So there’s a lot of remediation that has to happen to protect against disease spread. That’s certainly a burn pile situation. A lot of times those types of diseases are not necessarily in that new growth. And so when you get the lighter stuff coming off, you can mulch it right in, which is a great practice. But yeah, you got to get that disease stuff out.

Lisa: No, that’s an interesting distinction and just makes a lot of common sense that you wouldn’t want to take something with a disease and put it into the ground. Interesting. I’ve always wondered. Yeah. Why some people will burn and then other people you’ll see. But it just would be about the timing then in terms of what you’re pulling down and when.

Julia: Exactly. And they may do both.

Lisa: Yeah. It’s always fascinating to watch the pruning happen because it looks like it’s like, aren’t you gonna kill that tree? But it’s really interesting to know that that’s what you have to do to make it be like. Make the peaches and the fruit and the apricots be so delicious.

Julia: Yeah. Like there is a lot of maintenance that goes into tree health. For sure.

Lisa: Yeah. So another thing that I’ve heard people talking about, specifically in relation to fruit trees is, something about needing a certain number of dormant days. and so. And that this year I think there was maybe a little concern early on that we weren’t having enough or it wasn’t cold enough. How does like, what does that mean? How does that work?

Julia: I have heard that too. And this is something I don’t really know, but there’s definitely a number that you have to hit. And then from my understanding, if you don’t, then they’re susceptible. I don’t know. I haven’t gotten to that particular part yet. There was a very well known hard freeze in 2020 that had like impacts years and years after. And that hard freeze was so damaging that the lasting wounds from that and the effort that it has taken the trees to recover, because they’re basically constantly trying to recover and then produce and then recover and then produce. It’s been an issue. So I was learning recently about. And again, any orchard person will be like duh. But that there are certain sprays that you can use. and again I think there’s both organic and normal, what do you call that? Conventional, thank you, options. But as you know a freeze is coming, you can, I think it’s like a 10 hour window that you can spray the blossoms in order to protect them. Conversely in the fall if, okay, because this is what happened in 2020. There was like a 75 degree stretch of days in October and then in a matter of 63 hours it went down like I can’t even remember what it went down to. It just pulverized. But if you do know something like that is coming, you can also, I think there’s like a dormancy spray that encourages dormancy earlier because they’re not getting the cue to start to go into dormancy. And so they’re still really susceptible to they haven’t had time to harden off to incremental weather changes. So this spray encourages dormancy. The kind of balance to that is if you do use that, you shouldn’t use it all the time, only in kind of an emergency but because what ends up happening is then they do wake up a little bit sooner which is also a potential liability.

Lisa: So that’s so fascinating because like here, like you said, it has been single digits since at some times overnight this year. They can handle that now, but they couldn’t handle that if it was just like overnight.

Julia: No, they have no time. So like even with you know, something as simple as putting a tomato outside. So if you started in the greenhouse, it’s used to a certain expectation in its environment which is not direct sun, regular temperature, it’s babied. Then it’s gonna go out into the field. Right? Well, you cannot take it from a greenhouse and just plop it into the ground. It’s gonna get what they call this transplant shock. So you spend a significant amount of time slowly exposing plants to the elements to direct sun, to temperature changes, so that they’re better equipped, because they will they’ll actually adjust themselves, then you can put them in the ground. And it’s the exact same thing with with trees. They need gradual shift into temperature changes. In order to handle it.

Lisa: That totally makes sense. It’s just like normal, like a normal seasonal type thing.

Julia: Yeah, exactly.

Lisa: Since it’s warming up now, it seems like spring is always a little bit of a season when people are holding their breaths because it can be 70 or 80 or it could be like 20, you know, on a daily basis. So during this season, I mean, how do you kind of manage that? Like it sounds like there’s some things that can be done, but then also we’re also sort of just like at the mercy of nature. How do you just like manage dealing with that?

Julia: Well, the inherent risk is total loss anytime you’re farming anything. And many, many orchardists and farmers have been through that exact thing not too long ago. so what you can do besides the spray stuff is, okay, so you’re going to hear probably like, oh, the weather’s getting great. And then other people are gonna be like, no, it’s getting too warm, too soon. It’s encouraging these buds to grow too soon and then we’re going to get that April frost and they’ll all die. So I think just what you can do is be very attuned to the weather. You can put weather sensors out in your field, you can Bluetooth connect them to your phone so that you get an alert about temperature drops. But essentially physically what you can do is you’ll see a lot of orchards out there that have fans and that moves cold air just away. It’s really that really, really low cold air that does the most damage. So getting it, just moving it through and not letting it stagnate is important. You can also attach what you call a wind drain to the back of a tractor, which is kind of a smaller version of a large fan.

Lisa: Yeah, I see those driving around town. Like tractors towing them around town.

Julia: Exactly. So you set that strategically at a point in your orchard or you drive up and down. I don’t know what you do yet. I still have to learn that because I’ll need to be doing this in April because we have the wind drains on the back of a tractor. So you get out there at 2am or whenever and you protect your crop.

Lisa: Wow. The fan for the average person who doesn’t know anything about farming. You’re like, wait, if you blow a fan on something, it gets colder. it’s just so interestingly counter-intuitive.

Julia: There’s like, there’s also growing practices. So when you plant your tree and it grows, you are then going to do a strategic cut to establish what you call the crotch. And that should be at about knee height, well, depending on how tall you are. But that crotch is then where your scaffolds or your branches start to come out. And if your crotch is too low, then your whole tree is more susceptible to frost damage. Whereas if you have a taller crotch sometimes, that additional height can bring bring your buds out of a danger zone. So there’s also just like different techniques like that. And if you have two scaffolds, usually those two scaffolds tend to go up higher, which can protect your fruit. Then again, if you have any problems and you have to cut off one branch, then you got only one branch left. Like there’s all kinds of give and take as far as what method is best.

Lisa: Interesting. I’m thinking about all the variation now that I’ve seen and never thought about that it was intentional, you know, around, if you just bike around the fruit loop, the different variation in tree shapes and sizes and forms. I didn’t realize that there’s like a purpose behind that.

Julia: Absolutely. So you will see some that, are more closely planted together and two scaffold. So that’s what we call high density. And you can pack them a little bit closer together, which increases your fruit production. But it’s also, it can be a higher risk because if you lose some, that’s a significant loss. Then, you have a four scaffold. And then that also, like, you kind of have to be picking, all around the tree. But you usually are able to use just ladders because those scaffolds don’t grow up as tall. Whereas typically, from my understanding, when you have just two scaffold, sometimes you need a picking platform to get that much higher up. And again, the idea is to save it from the frost, but it can also be like more labor to be able to get that going. So.

Lisa: So when you say scaffold, you mean basically like one of the arms of the tree?

Julia: Exactly. Yes. Those. The branches that come out from the crotch of the tree, which is just that, that diversion part.

Lisa: All right, now I got to go around and see, like, how many different options I see.

Julia: Yeah!

Lisa: Let’s talk about how did you. How you got into farming? Because you’ve mentioned, the seed program, the seed business that you had in the past and just starting this and being fairly new. So how did you get to it? What made you decide to make that switch?

Julia: Okay, well, Buckle up. Kidding.

Lisa: If it is a switch.

Julia: It’s a little bit of a winding story, but I will try to be concise. So, okay, when I graduated from college, I earned my degree in linguistics in French. And then I moved to France to teach English. And I, of course, was just in love with France. But something I noticed that I did not see here at that point in time was a genuine value by the community of local producers. From vegetables to cheeses to wine. A very robust local culture. So you would still have like an industrial like, but you’d have like a Monoprix, which would be, you know, large scale canned goods or whatever, processed foods, popular. But in that same town square, every single week, you would have people coming to bring their really fresh stuff. And everybody in town went and bought there. And you would have a shepherd come in, like, certain points of the year with his sheep, and then he would sell his, sheep’s milk and the (french word) cheese and all kinds of stuff. Like it was seasonal and so valued. And I was like, wow, I’ve never seen anything like this. Even a farmer’s market, you know, it’s meat coming from Kansas being sold here in Colorado. Like, this doesn’t even.

Lisa: And if you don’t know it’s a local orchard, they could be getting their produce from anywhere. Right?

Julia: Yeah. Like, the. The genuine nature of this was really impressive to me. So when I came back, I wanted to know, who’s doing alternative agriculture? Is there a possibility for this? Is this happening even? So I found a little farmette in Lyons called the Lyons Farmette. And they did really cool. Like they were. They did permaculture stuff. I don’t know what’s happening with them now. That’s why I’m saying they did. This was a while ago. And they would do workshops and lectures. And, there was a seedsman giving a lecture one evening called I don’t know what it was called, but it was about seeds, and his name is Bill McDorman. And so I was like, oh, yeah, I’m gonna go to that. I’m gonna bug him about whatever. So I heard his talk, and it changed my life. After I heard how important seeds are and how our civilization basically is resting upon something that no one even thinks about, I was like, wow, I basically need to dedicate my life to increasing biodiversity and reversing the loss of seeds.

Lisa: Wow, that’s so cool.

Julia: So that was kind of where those two things met. So I basically glommed onto Bill, and he and his wife let me move down to Cornville, Arizona, where they had their seed company, Seeds Trust, and I became a seed apprentice. And they grew out all their vegetables and saved the seeds. Like that was their thing. So I lived with them and I learned about seeds. And then I eventually purchased that company from Bill and I brought it back to Colorado. And I mean, that set me on this whole farming trajectory. It was never about farming. It was about food security and it was about environmental responsibility. So having a purpose of responsible growing and not just plundering the earth, but care-taking is so important. Like the amount of loss that we face from something as simple as topsoil is like. We’re talking about survival.

Lisa: Yeah.

Julia: So the stakes are really high. And it’s something that’s so easy to ignore.

Lisa: Yeah. It’s easy to forget that because it’s here. You know, it took thousands or more, you know, of years to form topsoil. You can’t just form it tomorrow.

Julia: Similarly, you think about how we got to corn today. It started from something called teosinte, which is also, it sort of looks like a bloated wheat grass. And that over thousands of years was responding to the relationship between humanity. So we were selecting, we had a hand in selecting what we needed from that crop. And over time it became what we know as modern day corn over thousands of years. The sad thing is, is somebody’s effort can easily be lost forever because nobody took care of it anymore. Almost like the bystander effect. And without protecting heritage varieties and landraces and genetic diversity and open pollinated seed, this is not a reversible situation. When it’s gone, it’s gone, period. And our genetic pool diminishes. Genetics 101. You’re only ever as strong as your genetic pool. Think of the Habsburgs.

Lisa: Right. Then things are susceptible to disease. Or like bananas I think is a really good example where you’re just like there’s, there’s one commercially produced kind of banana. like that’s crazy.

Julia: Yeah.

Lisa: So it was like that passion for seeds more so. But then. So what made you then say all right. I’m gonna stop doing just the seed thing and I’m gonna do all this other stuff because there’s so much more that you do now.

Julia: Yeah. I honestly think I was a little under-stimulated. So I operated Seeds Trust as one person for so many years. It kind of like it sized itself around my capabilities. Like I’m actually not a business person. I didn’t go to business school. There are certain things that I just taught myself over time with varying degrees of success. So what I’m trying to say is I never ended up, I mean we have had employees at Seeds Trust, but it has always been. I got most of my satisfaction out of collaborative efforts with that seed company and working with other people and doing interesting combinations of skill sets. I wasn’t as in love with engaging with a customer about seeds. I wanted to tell them why it was important. And oftentimes being sort of isolated, I would lose a little bit of that line of sight about why the hell I’m doing this in the first place. So I needed more of a team and a larger reach to stay connected to the mission. And then I actually realized that I am happier as a person when I’m toiling in labor. So I struggle behind a screen, as many of us do, and I’m much more effective in my body, working in the soil and working hard. That’s like the best therapy I ever got in my life. And I just couldn’t go back from it. And I was just. I was done with the business aspect of the seed company and ready to launch into something that I knew nothing about. I just started my farm director role basically with this winter CSA season. So it was supposed to be like, January 1^st, but we launched this in November. And so I keep saying that I’ve been with Early Morning Orchard for, like, four seasons, but now I’m kind of, like, asking myself, what even is a season, since it’s four seasons.

Lisa: Yes.

Julia: but, yeah, I basically officially started, late last year and early this year, and then before that, you know, was doing collaborative projects or was, a farmhand, at Early Morning. So now I get to decide what we do.

Lisa: You’re the boss lady.

Julia: It’s pretty awesome. I feel so lucky. Like, I gotta pinch myself. It’s crazy!

Lisa: That’s great. That’s wonderful. So what brought you to Palisade originally and when?

Julia: So, my business partner, Alisha Wenger, she’s actually from the Grand Valley, from Grand Junction, and she was my inspiration to come out here. She lives in Palisade with her family, and she’s the executive director of Community Food Bank.

Lisa: I was like that name sounds familiar.

Julia: Yeah, she’s definitely. Yeah, one of those names. Let’s see, around 2020, she and her husband were getting, you know, thinking about, hey, where do we want to set down roots? Where do we want to raise a family? So they decided to come back to where Alisha grew up and start their family here. And Palisade is where they chose. And that was going to take my business partner away from me and from the business. And Alisha’s like, hey, why don’t you move? Why don’t we move Seeds Trust out to the Western Slope? And I was like, yeah, absolutely. I’m totally sold. I am grateful for my life in Denver, which is where I was before. That’s where I’m from. Quality of life was actually like, deteriorating relatively significantly. The traffic was crazy. I mean, you’re gonna hear the story. Time, time, time, time, time again.

Lisa: Yeah. We came out here from Fort Collins.

Julia: Oh, my God. I was spending my life in traffic.

Lisa: that’s not why we live out here.

Julia: It’s so expensive. And it’s like, how do you have a seed company and, like, survive? Like, I had four, I’ve always had so many extra jobs. So we have growers out here. It’s way more our pace. It made so much sense on so many different levels. So we actually move Seeds Trust into the business incubator center in Grand Junction, which is one of the best things we’ve done. And we had a lot of support for some of the ways in which we needed to grow our business. Covid was the biggest year we ever had for sales. Like, unmanageable. I get it. Right. Like, okay, we’re on our own. We got to grow our own food.

Lisa: Yeah. There was the whole interest in backyard chickens and sourdough and all those things coming together.

Julia: Totally, yep. So that helped us make this move and helped us grow as a business. Then things sort of evolved from there. But that’s how I found myself here in the Grand Valley.

Lisa: What do you like about Palisade? Like, are you glad you moved here? Like, what keeps you here?

Julia: Yeah, this is, well, like, the job opportunity brought me here, and I just feel so fortunate and so, like, I just feel so grateful. What I love about Palisade?, well I love my job. This is a very peaceful place to be. It’s stunningly beautiful. It truly honors the word epic. You, like, you look up and you see the Grand Mesa. Then you see the Bookcliffs like you’re on Mars. And then you look out and see the monument. It’s like a 360 degrees of magnificence. I think personally, I really thrive in a size similar to Palisade or Grand Junction. I like seeing people I know. I like feeling like I can have an impact in my community and a purpose in my community. I like serving my community. That’s so satisfying. Service is so satisfying. So I’ve been really impressed by the feeling of community and feeling like I can bring something to the community. yeah, I just. I love. I love all of that. I love that it’s an agricultural community. It’s very special. I also love, like, all of the luxury, kind of like indulgent experiences around here. Like, I love wine. I love peaches. I like riding my bike. I like music. I like hiking. I mean, it’s freaking paradise. It’s the coolest, the coolest place. Yeah. You could not pay me to move.

Lisa: Love it. I mean, obviously, I feel exactly the same way. Okay, so especially on your farm, four seasons farm, you mentioned, you know, having to be up at 2am sometimes driving a tractor around. It’s like a job that could never end. So, like, how, what’s your. What’s your day like? And how do you. Or do you need to, like, make yourself stop working ever?

Julia: yeah, I think a that’s a really good question. I think it will be different, during each season. So. Yeah, one of the things I’m compensated for is definitely taking care of that property when things go awry, they need to be taken care of. So something like protecting from a frost in the middle of the night is absolutely my job. It is a little odd living onsite because, you know, all the employees drive right past your window. Or, like, you weave. It’s. Yeah. Like, the boundary situation is something that I’m just trying to learn to navigate. And it is easy to go out and be like, well, just let me just finish this thing and let me just finish this. But I also feel really exhausted at the end of the day. And it’s very easy to be like, okay, I’m done, and I’m not gonna do one more freaking thing because I can’t.

Lisa: Your body tells you when it’s time to quit? That’s fair.

Julia: Yes. And so, I think that having things that bring me away from the farm and kind of contribute to, like, a more vibrant social life within the town is going to help a lot with that feeling of just always being at work. And it does have a very different vibe when nobody’s on the farm, like, it’s my time to connect with the farm. But honestly, that’s going to be a work in progress as time moves forward. So a day in the life. I wake up and pet my cat and then feed her her third breakfast of the day, make my coffee, and then try and get out the door to be on the farm by 8 and it’s always 8:03, because I cannot, like, I live there and I’m like three minutes late every morning. But we have our little farm team meeting in one of the sheds that we’ve turned into an office. The property is very cool because it was designed by Skip, who’s an architect. So there’s really cool structures on the farm, which I encourage everybody to come see. And it’s sort of a unique thing about this farm. They’re sort of funny shaped, so using them practically can be a challenge. But we meet up, we talk about our tasks, and then we disperse and we do our tasks. And those are going to be, you know, watering the propagation house. Because we have always having seeds starting in trays, from herbs to tomatoes to lettuce. These are things that need typically about four weeks in a tray before they’re ready to transplant. Which means you always have to be thinking at least four weeks ahead so that when there’s a space that opens up in a bed, you’ve got something to put in there. So we do like our watering. And then we actually have a lot of orders to fill, and certain organizations order on certain days. So we have our food access orders that go out one on Tuesday, one on Wednesday, and then we have, our retail orders that go out on Friday. So Monday’s a big harvest day. In our winter season, we harvest according to orders, right? We harvest our heirloom greens, Asian greens, romaine, spinach, and then we bring them into the washing shed. We wash it all, then we lay it out to dry. Then we bag it. We get the labels on it. That’s kind of like the labor aspect. And then there’s always the admin of invoicing and connecting with customers and developing business and then planning the farm, meeting with people, establishing relationships, following up on those relationships, doing really fun things like a podcast. Like, that’s the fun thing that I get to do. We do some deliveries. That’s a typical, typical day. A little bit of hands in the dirt, a little bit of fingers on the computer.

Lisa: Yeah, that’s a lot. I think the variety of any job is, is helpful to me. Like, I love just something where it never gets boring and old.

Julia: Right! It stays stimulating and not just it, doesn’t become the slog. It’s like it will change if it is slogging.

Lisa: Is there anything else you wanted to make sure you talk about or share with people that we haven’t covered already?

Julia: I would like people to know that we want the farm to be a welcoming space. I would like to see people drift on in. we’re going to be doing events, we’re going to be doing classes. We’re going to do some business attempts, like maybe some picnics in the orchard. so I just, I guess I want to get that out there to just come over and check us out! We actually have a plant sale on May 10th and so we’re gonna kind of kick off like, okay, so right before Mother’s Day, right. So you can pick, you can get some plants and give them as gifts. we’re gonna have some music. We’re going to sell our plants. We’re go going to sell some seeds. Seeds Trust will be there. We’re gonna have some sourdough bread from Little Button Bakery, who is one of our partners for our CSA add ons. and we’re just gonna kind of create a little party where you can enjoy what we have to offer. Stay tuned and be willing to let me pester you about coming to the farm and coming to an event and buying produce, like, and letting me pitch how awesome our produce is. Yeah, like, just. I’m excited to get more entwined into the community.

Lisa: I think the community is very excited to have you.

Julia: Thank you.

Lisa: Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Julia: My absolute pleasure.

Lisa: An awesome conversation and I definitely can’t wait to check out some of the things I learned.

Julia: Me too. Actually, I feel like I learned something from this conversation as far as, like, what I need to research.

Lisa: Cool. Win, win, win, win again.

Lisa: Listeners who closely follow the news will have picked up on Julia’s mention of food access, and that a couple of Early Morning Orchard’s bigger customers were local food pantries.

Julia and I chatted right before the USDA announced that it was cutting the federal programs that provided about $1 billion in funding to schools and food banks to buy food directly from local farmers, ranchers, and producers. This will impact farmers across the country, including here in Palisade. This funding had already been announced and farmers had planned their 2025 seasons around it.

I reached out to Julia to ask if she wanted to add a comment about this change. Julia wanted to “emphasize how precarious our food situation is when billions of dollars of funding disappear. It affects everyone in the chain from the folks who are in serious need of fresh food and nutrients, to the non-profits who provide access, all the way to the local farms who produce. It is devastating and wrong. [She would like to] encourage people to support local food producers and local food access programming.”

Farmers are incredibly resilient; they have to be, they deal with change and challenges and uncontrollable outcomes every day. But if you care about having local food to eat from local farmers, if you care about the agricultural community of Palisade, it’s more important than ever to support our local farmers by buying food directly from them.

But I’ll close on a lighter note, because I want to leave this conversation full of the passion, energy, and excitement that Julia has for her job, the Palisade community, and the earth. So I’ll end with her teasing me about the podcast.

Julia: So when are you going to let yourself be an interviewee for your podcast?

Lisa: Oh, people have asked me that, and I’m just like, I don’t know. Here’s the funny thing. I don’t really like talking about myself.

Julia: That’s why you’re in the question seat.

Lisa: I like asking questions. I’m very curious and I always want to know, like, why and how and whatever, but I feel like I don’t really have anything interesting to say. So, never!

Julia: Which is why you need a good question asker, because they’ll draw out all the obviously very interesting things about you.

Lisa: Very true.

Julia: Yeah, it would be cool. It would be cool to get a little inside scoop on your creation. It’s so cool.

Lisa: We’ll see who can do that. Maybe it’ll be you.

Julia: Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Well, it’ll be like a very laborious process. You’re like, okay now push this button.

Lisa: Oh, it’s really not that hard, trust me. If you can operate farm equipment, you’ll just be like, oh, it’s one click.

Julia: Oh, God, don’t get me started on farm equipment. Talk about a learning curve and, like, brute force.

The podcast’s theme music is Riverbend by Geoff Roper.

Thanks for listening. With love, from Palisade.